Borsalino Beaver

chippy said:

I am wanting a beaver fur felt fedora and have been debating with myself whether and how to choose between, a Borsalino Beaver, Stetson Pinnacle/Benchley, Art Fawcet, Penhman or Optimo custom hat, Sterling beaver i discounted even though they look very nice i think they about $2500 which is unreasonable to me (to say the least!, i could nearly buy a plane ticket across the world to Lock & Co for a custom fitting lol ).


of course my other (albeit crazy) alternative is to buy a new beaver blank (60+ euro from adventure built), a plastic mould and do most of myself, sanding etc and get some local hatter to sew a brim binding on and maybe a ribbon lol lol thats how desperate and crazy this is sending me

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Hat Quality is a result of much more than the particular animal that donated its pelt. Many of the finest hats were and are crafted of many blends or just Rabbit. Not all Beaver is of equal quality either. You are giving no credit to the quality of the felting, finishing and construction quality. Ribbons can be changed as well as creases. Custom Hatters will give you many more options to begin with and may have Vintage or unusual patterns. Only a crease pressed into a stiff hat or for a prolonged period is permanent. A vintage hat can also be used as a body to create a hat to your desired look with new blocking, ribbon and crease or brim treatment. Your over-emphasis on new 100% Beaver is misplaced. These hatters have devoted a lot of years and thought to hone their craft(and proper implements). What do you think a beginners attempt will look like?

Dinerman said:

IMG]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j164/dinerman/f073_1.jpg[/IMG]
I have (parts) of a borsalino made out of "Martora", which translates to "Marten"

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I had a rabbit Borso that needed a bit of spicing up. They added marten to the felt in only 60 minutes, and for free. (The place is all about good work and bad spelling.)


Then again, maybe they did add Martin. I never saw what went into the mix.

Art Fawcett said:

Hi Chippy, I see you are carrying some misinformation so I'd like to clarify for you.
My site is minimal for a reason as it leaves open most possibilities and that is intentional. I did not and do not want to make a Gent's first hat so I'm not geared for the "newbie". One of the reasons is a problem I am having right now. I custom built a hat almost a year ago for a gent ( his first hat) and last week got it back ( yes, after one year) saying he just didn't look good in it and wanted a refund.
My intention is to make hats for those that appreciate the artwork in them and therefore I don't intend to educate through my site. I personally cannot imagine packing a library of info like others try to do. I also don't want to sell brushes, stiffner, cleaning products, etc like others. In short I try very hard to be different.
I make hats for folks all over the world and yes, the process does not change depending on your location. Please see a hat I made for "cookie" on the Lounge, also from down under.
I can see where you might think that all of my crowns come open but that is definitely NOT the case. Since you have been in contact with Sterling I can guess where most of the mis info came from, just please take everything coming from there with a huge lump of salt.
I do offer windcords but since I only use vintage cords instead of those cheap imitations used by other hatters, my color range is limited. If I don't have one that works, I don't put one on.
In summary, I'm sorry you feel the process is too "hard" but I can do very little about that. As I tried to state earlier, I do not want to make hats for "the masses" and therefore don't feel the expense in time and money would be productive for me.

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wonderful to hear from you Art, indeed i am most likely carrying some misinformation, i certainly dont claim to have any fenced off corner of the paddock as my own, or perhaps a, kinda, more descriptive term might be a gent (or Australian ) hunting for knowledge on what i need ,to acquire a nice ,nay beautiful hat. i have been wearing hats since i was fifteen, not every single day (but most of the time, so you see i might be new to the terms of hat making but not to wearing them!!!), but for many years it was all day every day...its about time (a few decades later) that i deserve a few wonderful hats i think!!! considering i put the effort into my other regular clothing and suits i think a special hat or two is most warranted and something missing until now!


my musing or written thoughts expressed on my progress so far are not intended to be critical -of anyone- but just expressing how a beginner (to the wonderful world of hat finery) can have difficulty and where my thoughts have thus far taken me so far, i hope you can understand...if i have a complaint (and dont take it seriously, its just a comment) at all with your site its only that it has frustrated me that i feel i must learn all about hats and every detail of the building process before asking for a hat, and i am concerned (fear-no doubt silly) i will have to keep learning for the next few years before i can even ask for a hat to be made (not said in a bad way, but in a way that your hats inspired me to be more inquisitive-i hope you understand,again).

for me being a serious consumer i would like (understandably) to have better/more information presented, certainly what felts may be available, i didnt know you had a choice of different weight felts until i read someones post here the other day! all this time i have intentionally not emailed you, so as not to be a bother is all. obviously i have an appreciation for character and art in peoples work (at this point you cant imagine how much i appreciate art and fine workmanship), but what level of knowledge does a person need to obtain mearly to become a customer, does he have to guess what materials you have in stock (frustration surfacing on my part you can see, but you might imagine i have been reading years of past posts to gather all info i could to minimise foolish questions!). moreover, its not that i have contacted Sterling, i have simply read about six years of posts on this forum lol, i notice that most every thing about him is deleted, but i have seen some pics on the web and notice he is on ebay, so thats about the span of info, apart from my eye looking closly at pictures of them and others..


well i guess i continue to learn, Jaunyone mentioned you probably sold/created formed hats as well but i was under the impression it was just open crowned (info just from posts remember-it isnt written on your site), i dont mind open crowned either, but for this particualr hat i want it to look sharp..as i mentioned ealier, nice casual messy is something i can pull off every day, but sometimes i like to look sharp and dont entirely trust i have the skills to form a perfect bash..i certainly have the skills to turn a formed (cookie cutter hat) bash into my own personality but thats another story

if i have upset you i most certainly apologise, it was not my intention, i am starting to think its way to hard to get a nice hat. i cant imagine anyone would agree that the fellow you mentioned about complaining a year later had any warrant to do so, though i understand those types of thing can be most distressing to someone whom, takes pride in their work/craft

rlk said:

Hat Quality is a result of much more than the particular animal that donated its pelt. Many of the finest hats were and are crafted of many blends or just Rabbit. Not all Beaver is of equal quality either. You are giving no credit to the quality of the felting, finishing and construction quality. Ribbons can be changed as well as creases. Custom Hatters will give you many more options to begin with and may have Vintage or unusual patterns. Only a crease pressed into a stiff hat or for a prolonged period is permanent. A vintage hat can also be used as a body to create a hat to your desired look with new blocking, ribbon and crease or brim treatment. Your over-emphasis on new 100% Beaver is misplaced. These hatters have devoted a lot of years and thought to hone their craft(and proper implements). What do you think a beginners attempt will look like?

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Hi RIK
no its not that i am giving no credit to the quality of the felting, its simply that i have not mentioned what quality beaver felts all the various 'hatters' are using...i wonder if anyone else will care to do so?

of course i appreciate different qualities make for different felts, but until the hatters care to make those details known i guess i have no choice but assume they are the same, as we all have to

i fully understand your point about creases and ribbons etc being able to be changed, if , i was to get a Stetson for instance, i would most likely change the crease slightly, if the opportunity presented itself the ribbon would be improved, a brim edge installed to start with! go figure! i have always changed my hats to suit myself, its not like i have been wearing baseball caps all my life

Lefty said:

I had a rabbit Borso that needed a bit of spicing up. They added marten to the felt in only 60 minutes, and for free. (The place is all about good work and bad spelling.)

Then again, maybe they did add Martin. I never saw what went into the mix.
http://www.mbd2.com/forum/balloon_Animal_Blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/steve.jpg[/IMG]

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Did you send it to martinizing.com?
http://www.martinizing.com/

chippy said:

Hi RIK
no its not that i am giving no credit to the quality of the felting, its simply that i have not mentioned what quality beaver felts all the various 'hatters' are using...i wonder if anyone else will care to do so?

of course i appreciate different qualities make for different felts, but until the hatters care to make those details known i guess i have no choice but assume they are the same, as we all have to

i fully understand your point about creases and ribbons etc being able to be changed, if , i was to get a Stetson for instance, i would most likely change the crease slightly, if the opportunity presented itself the ribbon would be improved, a brim edge installed to start with! go figure! i have always changed my hats to suit myself, its not like i have been wearing baseball caps all my life

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I understand the difficulty and frustration of gleaning information and attempting comparisons electronically[huh] Sure would be a whole lot easier to walk into a store and handle the merchandise and see it on one's head. Reading the accumulation of info on this site is helpful(if sometimes contradictory). I really just wanted to open you up to some more(perhaps in some cases better) possibilities, and often with less financial risk. No real substitute,unfortunately for seeing and handling as many hats as possible.

Since this is a thread about Borsalino Beaver hats which also has a few posts about Art Fawcett, I'll take it as an opportunity to show my Borsalino Beaver which has been re-blocked by Art.

Here is a "before" shot - the hat was getting a bit floppy/droopy, and the very wide brim with the low crown just bugged me.



Here is a shot of the hat as re done by Art.


As far as the felt goes, I think it is quite nice. Not better, but not wose than the Beaver Art uses - but that is just an uninformed opinion.

Art - you handled the felt - obviously - do you have any comment on the felt quality of the Borsalino Beaver?

Gordon

more on beaver hats

chippy said:

I
"I am wanting a beaver fur felt fedora and have been debating with myself whether and how to choose between, a Borsalino Beaver, Stetson Pinnacle/Benchley, Art Fawcet, Penhman or Optimo custom hat, Sterling beaver i discounted even though they look very nice i think they about $2500 which is unreasonable to me (to say the least!, i could nearly buy a plane ticket across the world to Lock & Co for a custom fitting lol ). "

Interesting observations. I am no expert, and from your post I learned of the existence of sterling beaver hats, and the company that purveys them, Gladhatter. So I looked at his website, talked to him on the phone, and am considering a purchase someday, although his fine hats are darn expensive. A lot of cool hats on that website. Most creative hats I've seen.

Borsalino hats--I never bought them from their website, but rather from American hat shops that sell them on the Internet--Peters Brothers, Delmonico, Hats.com, Village Hat Shop. They all have proprietary Borsalino styles, they say.

My opinion about a beaver hat it that you just have to learn by doing. You identified a huge range of options which I didn't know about, and looked at Art's website. I have a Borsalino beaver fedora, and it's nice, but I don't think I know everything about beaver hats now. Don't know how it compares to other folks' beaver quality-wise. I get from FL that people argue about that. For me, style is first, hopefully with good quality. You buy vintage hats, they might work for you, might not, but at least it's inexpensive. Better felt, worse styling. With new, you get new styling.

I personally am not a fan of blocking hats yourself. I would go to a place that has hat blocks and let them do it. It just looks better, more decisive. With a hand-blocked hat it looks like you can't make up your mind what you want to be. My first hat, I wanted to do that; over the years I realized it's because I was afraid of wearing a fedora out there, and didn't want people to think I was too much off in a certain direction. I got over it.

Last comment--I really like that all the folks like different style hats. I know what style works well for me, and a lot of people don't select that style, which is great. If we all had the same hat style it would start to look like a uniform, like a 1950s movie where all men had hats and you couldn't tell 'em apart.

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No worries Chippy, I DID take some offense to your words but after further thought you are probably right, I should put more info into the site.

What I deal with is a fine line ( in my eyes) between the impersonal nature of the internet and the personal touch that I believe that hatting requires. Also, unlike most business models, I have to be careful what I wish for as I'm easily overloaded with work. I do everything myself here right down to sweeping floors so I worry about too much business. I never want the 1-2 year waiting list, it makes me too nervous with just a few months, I can't imagine the self imposed pressure from 1 year wait.

As for Sterling, there is a reason why you read nothing here about him. He was banned completely many years ago for his behavior and, I personally believe him to be the most dishonest hatter in the country. He is definitely "play at your own risk" and hates me passionately for a number of reasons. He never seems to waste an opportunity to slam another hatter, ANY other hatter, but me especially ( along with Borsalino) so, fact check everything said, please.

I am glad you can see what i was trying to say Art (just from a newcomers perspective) and accept my apology for any poorly phrased comments, as i mentioned it certainly wasn't my intention, it sounds like that SB fellow has caused you reason for concern in the past, perhaps my mention of him in conjunction with my innocent but awkward comments raised a red flag in your mind...not to worry i hope

i can certainly appreciate your 'fine line' dilemma of advertising a product world wideno less! but also wanting to keep it to a scale where it balances your personal harmony and maintains that quality of life.

Whilst it is obviously better to be fitted for a hat in person, it does seem to me you are to be commended by making the effort!! (and the hats available) to the best of your abilities, the biggest hurdle and pitfall against buying hats (custom/taylor fit) over the net by using a conformer of some type. i am sure the old hatters long gone could not of imagined having to work in the same way....could you imagine, correspondence written by quills and ink with sketches attached being delivered by horseback courier lol ,,or i guess a few years later by deuce coupe or later by mail order magazine, kit custom hats

danofarlington said:

Interesting observations. I am no expert, and from your post I learned of the existence of sterling beaver hats, and the company that purveys them, Gladhatter. So I looked at his website, talked to him on the phone, and am considering a purchase someday, although his fine hats are darn expensive. A lot of cool hats on that website. Most creative hats I've seen.

Borsalino hats--I never bought them from their website, but rather from American hat shops that sell them on the Internet--Peters Brothers, Delmonico, Hats.com, Village Hat Shop. They all have proprietary Borsalino styles, they say.

My opinion about a beaver hat it that you just have to learn by doing. You identified a huge range of options which I didn't know about, and looked at Art's website.

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yes, i wish they were local where i could get my hands on them and try them on, but i think i will just have to bite the bullet and buy one!. i may add to the weekend list of things to do, to drop into some old OP shops or second hand clothing stores to see if there are some old hats with high crowns to see what they look like on me for the heck of it.

BTW that list is just the start! the more you look the longer it gets! just a couple of other beaver hat suppliers are Beaver Brand 100% beaver hat available from the fedora store that is kinda menu based internet style custom , there is Tumwater custom hats whom is only about $275 and seems to embellish his ribbons nicely , a bit like Art/VS, then theres Gary White whom seems to make anything for a good price and has a good reputation from what i read, Adventurebilt say they make custom beaver fedora, albeit twice the price ($650) of VS and some others, and here's the strange bit, Penman Hats whom makes a 100% beaver fedora for about $350! if you look at the contact details for Adventurebilt it is Penman's email address!? so if you go through Penman site you get a fedora for $350 but through Adeventurebilt its $650 go-figure! :eusa_doh:

danofarlington said:

I have a Borsalino beaver fedora, and it's nice, but I don't think I know everything about beaver hats now. Don't know how it compares to other folks' beaver quality-wise. I get from FL that people argue about that.

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that has been my impression as well, although i tend to think its the ordinary Borsalino felt (range of hats) people are usually critical of. i havnt noticed anyone singling out Borsalio's new/modern beaver felt as such (no one that has bought or owned it has complained so far as i can tell, of course its not cheap for someone to just try out) but the comment has been made a LOT that Borsalino quality in general took a nose dive back in the 1980's. that may or may not be as relevant now in 2010 (i dont know?) and may not apply as much specifically to the beaver fur felt hat anyway, i guess[huh] .

as near as i can make out or remember from overload of reading posts, i get the impression that Borsalino may make their own felt, other than that there are (at least?) i think i remember reading a couple of small places in Europe in addition to the two other main places that supply beaver felt, one starts with a 'F' fesbo!? (also in Europe)...something like that(i cant remember off the top of my head what the letters were, it didnt spell a word lol) and the other i think is Winchester possibly. it would appear many(most?) hatters use the winchester beaver (its said to be notably cheaper too) and i havnt heard there is any reason not to believe it is a fine product, the hatters that use the euro F...... felt tend to be the more expensive hatters (although i couldnt say going by colours that that Sterling fellow uses the Euro felt at all)

danofarlington said:

For me, style is first, hopefully with good quality. You buy vintage hats, they might work for you, might not, but at least it's inexpensive. Better felt, worse styling. With new, you get new styling.

I personally am not a fan of blocking hats yourself. I would go to a place that has hat blocks and let them do it. It just looks better, more decisive. With a hand-blocked hat it looks like you can't make up your mind what you want to be. My first hat, I wanted to do that; over the years I realized it's because I was afraid of wearing a fedora out there, and didn't want people to think I was too much off in a certain direction. I got over it.

Last comment--I really like that all the folks like different style hats. I know what style works well for me, and a lot of people don't select that style, which is great. If we all had the same hat style it would start to look like a uniform, like a 1950s movie where all men had hats and you couldn't tell 'em apart.

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that last line is amusing, it paints a visual to me, or i can imagine making a B&W photograph from a window above, looking down on the sea of 5 o'clock sidewalk hats hurrying home ...as it happens i have been watching a few of the old Cagney, Bogart, Errol Flynn, Gregory Peck etc movies lately so it seems i notice the hats more now (jeepers lol lol ) and whilst on a couple of occasions they did look messy and not that good, at other times they do look great, and casual, and the way they flick the hat against their other hand or something as though its nothing more than a handkerchief and then re-shape it, does have its appeal so i can see why many people crave the supple open crowned hats...and i will have one for sure but i also like the sharp and neat as a pin look (if not somewhat modern too), for me those hats end up in time looking shabby sooner or later anyway

hat sites

chippy said:

BTW that list is just the start! the more you look the longer it gets! just a couple of other beaver hat suppliers are Beaver Brand 100% beaver hat available from the fedora store that is kinda menu based internet style custom , there is Tumwater custom hats whom is only about $275 and seems to embellish his ribbons nicely , a bit like Art/VS, then theres Gary White whom seems to make anything for a good price and has a good reputation from what i read, Adventurebilt say they make custom beaver fedora, albeit twice the price ($650) of VS and some others, and here's the strange bit, Penman Hats whom makes a 100% beaver fedora for about $350! if you look at the contact details for Adventurebilt it is Penman's email address!? so if you go through

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I am interested to see these sites, which I didn't know existed. I've now looked at them, and judging by their models, am more decided than ever on the styles that I would like, which by the way is a good accomplishment. Knowing what you want is half the battle. Actually, after seeing the websites of all of these places, I think I need more hats than I used to think, because of the range of colors and other variables.

I am going to use these models to order a custom hat or two. Without the models I wouldn't have a clear idea. As I go on in the buying process, I am more convinced that I like new hats rather than vintage--they look better. Vintage hats are good for working out a personal style for yourself, especially if that hat isn't available commercially, or you block it in an interesting way. But at the end of the day, an old hat is an old hat (I have a couple of them) and I want the crispness of a new one. But I'm particular on what that new one should be.