A Civil Discourse About Reenacting

[Spitfire]

I have this strange divided feelings about reenacting.
On one hand I can see, that reenactors have fun, doing what they are doing. And it might even be a sort of living out your dreams to some.
On the other hand I found it very strange, when I was in Normandy for the 60years aniversary of D-day, to see all these middleaged, heavy to overweight guys strutting around in paratrooper uniforms in St. Mere Eglise. It sort of just got too much - some of them were ok - but some were overreacting to a degree, that was almost distastefull. Hangin out in bars, like they had just liberated the whole village. I mean - c'mon, their touristbusses were parked just around the corner!
And then again - as mentioned here - when I am at Duxford, I enjoy having pilots and groundcrews hanging around the ol' Blenheim. It ads to the whole atmosphere!
Well, maybe I am just jealoux - not much fun reenacting an old man in 1940 is there???lol

 

[dhermann1]

30 years war

BTW! For those not familiar with the 30 Years War, it gives WW2 a run for its money in terms of tremendous scale, carnage and destruction. The experience of the 30 Years War traumatized Germany to the degree that you can argue that it was a contributory cause to the World Wars. The same can be said of the British Civil Wars, also in the mid 1600's. 200,000 killed in a country of 6 million. Imagine the American Civil War producing 2 or 2.5 million deaths instead of 600,000 and you get a vague idea. Between 1617 and 1650 the population of Germany supposedly went from 13 million to 8.5 million. Tho this may be an exaggeration, it was still a conflict of unimaginable horror. We humans sure are good at annihilating each other.

 

[Miss Sis]

I have this strange divided feelings about reenacting.
On one hand I can see, that reenactors have fun, doing what they are doing. And it might even be a sort of living out your dreams to some.
On the other hand I found it very strange, when I was in Normandy for the 60years aniversary of D-day, to see all these middleaged, heavy to overweight guys strutting around in paratrooper uniforms in St. Mere Eglise. It sort of just got too much - some of them were ok - but some were overreacting to a degree, that was almost distastefull. Hangin out in bars, like they had just liberated the whole village. I mean - c'mon, their touristbusses were parked just around the corner!
And then again - as mentioned here - when I am at Duxford, I enjoy having pilots and groundcrews hanging around the ol' Blenheim. It ads to the whole atmosphere!
Well, maybe I am just jealoux - not much fun reenacting an old man in 1940 is there???lol

This is the reason we are uneasy with alot of the 'Re-enactors' - doing things that are completely inappropriate for them! Men who are too old and (he-hum) weighty, being Paratroopers etc. Lording it up like they did these things themselves! This is an era within living memory and we need to be very careful about how we portray it as some people will take exception. My Grandmother lived under Nazi occupation in Holland and still finds it upsetting to speak about it over 60 years later. You can imagine how she would feel seeing a bunch of people dressed as German SS running round the place!

Our group is all civilian, so there is a role for everyone and that's something we're proud of. From the youngest child to the oldest granddad, we can portray ordinary civilians and the civvy services. Many people comment on how they like to see us with our teavan and display of related items. Should I ever don a uniform again, I do so knowing I must conduct myself in a way to honour those who wore it for real, not treat it as a game of dress up. Having said that, we do want to enjoy what we're doing. I think a bit of knowledge goes a long way in striking the right balance.

 

[Fletch]

Nobody ever wants to portray a slightly pudgy major who flew a desk in the rear echelons. Ironic because the heroes we salute would have envied that major no end.

If I reenact, I am going to be that major.

 

[missjo]

More and more people in this hobby are making a distinction between reenactment and living history.
The first being 'playing soldiers' and the second being 'bringing the past to live'.
A better and more clear description can be found on wikipedia.

There are lots of discussions going on about reenacting the SS, being educational, hairstyles, paperwork, details, first person, etc, etc.
I like to think that what we do is civilian Living History and I see what we do like making a movie without a camera.
With other words, everything has to be perfectly authentic.
Fat old long haired men simply wouldnt be allowed to play a GI in a proper movie production!
So why in living history?

Of course many reenactment events are private, no public there, just a bit of fun.
Thats okay with me and if its private, anyone can portray whatever they want.

But when theres public around you have a duty to be accurate and honour the most important generation of the last century!

 

[Story]

Nobody ever wants to portray a slightly pudgy major who flew a desk in the rear echelons. Ironic because the heroes we salute would have envied that major no end.

If I reenact, I am going to be that major.

You'd need a clerk to tell people "you can only see the Major when he isn't in", while you slip out through your office window.

http://www.b25.net

 

[Sunny]

More and more people in this hobby are making a distinction between reenactment and living history.
The first being 'playing soldiers' and the second being 'bringing the past to live'.
A better and more clear description can be found on wikipedia.

There are lots of discussions going on about reenacting the SS, being educational, hairstyles, paperwork, details, first person, etc, etc.
I like to think that what we do is civilian Living History and I see what we do like making a movie without a camera.
With other words, everything has to be perfectly authentic.
Fat old long haired men simply wouldnt be allowed to play a GI in a proper movie production!
So why in living history?

fftopic: This is a huge concern among the Civil War reenacting community. In the last ten years there's been a lot more conscientious work on the military side; in some ways the civilian side (mine, of course) is rather behind. Even when our material culture is just as good, appropriate scenarios for being present aren't as readily available. Those "tent cities" full of women in silks just don't recreate anything. What we wouldn't give for a whole period village!

The worst result of the living history idea is that there's a big split in the community itself between the "mainstreamers" and "hardcores." Rather sad.

At least I'll be gone most of next week at a non-spectator event in the Middle of Nowhere, Lousiana. We civilians just want to scrape by on our own, but with two armies in the neighborhood... I have it on good authority (the Confederate commander, no less) that we'll have plenty of excitement.

 

[Spitfire]

You'd need a clerk to tell people "you can only see the Major when he isn't in", while you slip out through your office window.

http://www.b25.net

lol lol lol :eusa_clap Story, you just quoted my alltime favourit book. Catch 22! That's some cathc that catch 22...

 

[missjo]

I have always been more interested in the average people, the commoners.
I want to portray who I think I could have been had I lived then.
When I do ww2 living history I am not a hollywood moviestar or some sort of hero.
Im a woman trying to survive in a occupied country.
While others walk around in silk stockings, huge hats, amazing dresses and fur coats, I try to look lime most women would have looked during the war.

 

[Smithy]

I totally agree with Spitfire and Miss Sis. I really don't like seeing middle aged and chubby men dressed up in combat uniforms either. I must admit that I personally find it a bit sad really and it just looks all wrong.

I do like seeing reenactors at airshows and they add colour to such events but to my eyes they still have to look youngish to get away with it and pull it off in a manner that adds to the event rather than detracts from it.

 

[MrBern]

My girlfriend's dad was at Anzio and Monticassino, and saw some pretty horrible stuff. He doesn't like to talk about it or dwell on it. I think the people who really experience the horrors of war are not the ones who do the strutting. The strutters tend to be the guys that were safe behind the lines when the worst was happening, and then blew in afterward when the danger was gone. Abraham Lincoln wrote a very charming poem about a bearhunt, and one dog that growled and barked ferociously at the bear once it was dead.

I like the scene in Jarhead when the drillsargeant asks, "What'd your father say about `Nam?"
The recruit replies, 'not much'
The DrillSgt exclaims, 'OUTSTANDING! Means he wasnt lying!"

 

[Miss Sis]

I totally agree with Spitfire and Miss Sis. I really don't like seeing middle aged and chubby men dressed up in combat uniforms either. I must admit that I personally find it a bit sad really and it just looks all wrong.

I do like seeing reenactors at airshows and they add colour to such events but to my eyes they still have to look youngish to get away with it and pull it off in a manner that adds to the event rather than detracts from it.

This is still a bit of an issue - I know one group doing RAF where all the 'pilots' are the older members and all the 'ground crew' are the younger members! They do those roles because they want to but it isn't what the reality would be and we're aware of it.

Personally, we always try to do something appropriate to our age and have a story to back it up. I always say I'm in the WVS because I'm in a reserved occupation. I base that on a friend of mine who is 87 and was in banking. She wasn't allowed to leave so did whatever voluntary work she could. We also have an older couple who play the vicar and his wife or she does the lady who looked after the Land Girls. There are roles for everyone if you are prepared to look around and not pretend to be a Paratrooper when you're 60!
One of the next events I'll be the village school teacher and part-time ARP warden. I'm happy, I get to create a story and role for myself and still be in context. My boyfriend will be an ARP Warden, full-time and also the Scout Leader. He will say he was wounded at Dunkirk and invalided out of the services.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

I totally agree with Spitfire and Miss Sis. I really don't like seeing middle aged and chubby men dressed up in combat uniforms either. I must admit that I personally find it a bit sad really and it just looks all wrong.

I do like seeing reenactors at airshows and they add colour to such events but to my eyes they still have to look youngish to get away with it and pull it off in a manner that adds to the event rather than detracts from it.

The "chubby" part I agree with. It is a constant theme throughout all periods of reenacting. The "middle aged" part I disagree with, however. It all depends on the period and the nationality.

For US in WW2, yes, they should be relatively young. Russian as well, although there were plenty of older privates in the ranks including WWI and revolutionary veterans. For German, however, the average age was MUCH older than for the Americans. If I remember correctly, the average age for a German soldier late in the war was 34, and for the US it was almost a decade younger. I don't have any problem seeing guys in their 40s or even early 50s doing German for just that reason, so long as their impression is good.

 

[Story]

For US in WW2, yes, they should be relatively young. Russian as well, although there were plenty of older privates in the ranks including WWI and revolutionary veterans. For German, however, the average age was MUCH older than for the Americans. If I remember correctly, the average age for a German soldier late in the war was 34, and for the US it was almost a decade younger. I don't have any problem seeing guys in their 40s or even early 50s doing German for just that reason, so long as their impression is good.

Funny how art imitates life imitating art imitating life. The HETRINA roles (German Federal roster of 'Hessian' mercenaries serving in the Americas, 1776 to 1783) lists a fair number of privates over the age of 40.

Guess they were too slow to outrun the Landgraffs' press gangs.

 

[Spitfire]

The "chubby" part I agree with. It is a constant theme throughout all periods of reenacting. The "middle aged" part I disagree with, however. It all depends on the period and the nationality.

For US in WW2, yes, they should be relatively young. Russian as well, although there were plenty of older privates in the ranks including WWI and revolutionary veterans. For German, however, the average age was MUCH older than for the Americans. If I remember correctly, the average age for a German soldier late in the war was 34, and for the US it was almost a decade younger. I don't have any problem seeing guys in their 40s or even early 50s doing German for just that reason, so long as their impression is good.

OK - I might be able to do Rommel or Von Rundstedt then. Or fat boy Herman. lol

 

[Fletch]

The "chubby" part I agree with. It is a constant theme throughout all periods of reenacting.

If it weren't for the demographic commonly known as Large Men with Guns, would there even be any reenacting?

 

[Zemke Fan]

Bartender's Note

I moved a number of these posts to this new thread to give us a place to discuss IN A CALM MANNER the various pros/cons ins/out of reenacting. The OTHER thread from which these were pruned ("Is anyone here involved in reenacting?") is where those of us who are into living history can post our photos and or thoughts about groups we're involved with.

THAT IS ALL! -- CARRY ON.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

I totally agree with Spitfire and Miss Sis. I really don't like seeing middle aged and chubby men dressed up in combat uniforms either. I must admit that I personally find it a bit sad really and it just looks all wrong.

I do like seeing reenactors at airshows and they add colour to such events but to my eyes they still have to look youngish to get away with it and pull it off in a manner that adds to the event rather than detracts from it.

Precisely. The last show I went to had quite a few displays and some very knowledgeable people in uniform, both German and American. No one was playing soldier, just playing the part of props as it were. Really cool because they lend a sense of immediacy to the history that they show and teach. It was fascinating to see all the various weapons and equipment on display, and to talk with both sides about little details that I never knew before. For instance, on the American side, there was an unopened pack of Luckys with 2 cents sealed inside the cellophane which I learned was the change due the purchaser when buying cigarettes from a vending machine.

 

[Chanfan]

I have been interested in living history/reenacting, but have never done it myself. Of course, if I had my druthers, I'd be doing Napoleonic - that era has, in my opinion, the best uniforms!

But, I certainly can't afford the cost of such. Besides, the best/most gaudy uniforms are generally the cavalry, and I can't really ride.

I do agree, that if I saw a WWII impression that was made up of overweight, middle aged men - say, me - it would detract from it looking "right". But then again, I think a lot depends on why your group is doing whatever it's doing. If the be-all end-all is to look correct to the last detail to an audience, it wouldn't hash. But, if your goal is to have the members be satisfied that all the details are right, but they are doing it just for their own satisfaction - who cares about the bodies in the uniforms?

Still, one issue I do have with WWII (and later) re-enacting is, it seems too fresh historically - sometimes I think of my father. It's just odd to see folks re-enacting an event where folks from that war are still around. My dad isn't anymore, but I'm not sure if he'd appreciate it or not. At the same time, it's kind of honoring that generation.

But the point about running about in SS uniforms is a good one. In my punk rock days, I once wore an "Adolf Hitler European Tour" T-shirt on a trip to visit relatives. I didn't realize that my aunt was a War bride, and she took one look at it and left the room. I had to change and apologize. Just imagine her coming across a squad of reenactors.

Just as an additional data point - I said I don't do reenacting / living history. I do partake in the SCA, but I won't even attempt to annoy anyone by making an claims that it's anything but a big medieval costume party, with fun sports and drinking. There are some quality individual impressions in there, but then again, they aren't really trying to be the same thing as "serious" groups.

 

[Spitfire]

SS sucks!

Being from a country that was occupied by the nazis. Having a father who fought them in the resistance movement and just survived, I find it very hard to undertand and to accept reenactors strutting around in SS uniforms.

Even saw a small group in Normandy at the 60th aniversary for D-day. Imagin that!

I find it just as strang as if a group of BinLaden/Mujahedin reenactors walked around the streets of Manhattan. Distastefull.