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A generation with its hand out...

Lean'n'mean

I'll Lock Up
Messages
4,079
Location
Cloud-cuckoo-land
Yup, human demand / want is limitless - that's my point, sans eye roll.

The herculean efforts - physical, intellectual and logistical - employed, argue that creating supply (things like electricity, iPhones or cashews*) is more than a mere detail.

The iPhone is a perfect example of my point in that first you create a demand, then you deal with the supply. No one wants or needs the iPhone X for example , yet millions of people around the world have been persuaded that they do. The talent doesn't lay with the actual manufacture of said phones, nor their distribution but in persuading the potential purchasers that they must absolutely have your phone.
Of course the supply chain involves logistics but it doesn't require talent or geniuses as you suggested.
 

LizzieMaine

Bartender
Messages
33,345
Location
Where The Tourists Meet The Sea
I live in the least "churched" state in the Union, so the idea of being asked "And what church do you go to?" is as alien to me as "What part of Mars are your people from?"

But the fact that we aren't "churched" here doesn't mean we don't have spiritual beliefs -- if anything I think there's a greater variety of such beliefs here than I encountered during my sojourn in California in the hippy-dippy eighties. We'll discuss them if the subject comes up, and from doing so I think it's safe to day that most people here don't reject belief in a deity as much as we reject "religion," meaning the institutionalized practice of worship according to a prescribed ritual. Proseltyzation isn't considered offensive as much as it's considered bad taste.

From my own experience, the kindest, most spiritual people I know in our own community are those from our local synagogue. Whenever there's a charity drive going on, they're in the forefront of it. And they also make a point of paying the city the amount of property tax they'd have to pay if they weren't exempt as a donation to the costs of city services, and I respect and admire that very much.
 
Messages
10,756
Location
My mother's basement
While I would personally steer clear of any addiction treatment program with a religious bent, the more secular ones of my acquaintance are also to a large degree "faith based" -- not overtly religious, perhaps, but grounded in what is more an article of faith than anything truly scientific.

Disease models pose more questions than they answer. it appears that such thinking is falling out of fashion in the field. That's all to the better.

Substance abuse -- smoking and drinking, mostly -- was once so central to my life that I entertained no illusions that I would ever quit. It influenced (dictated, really) the jobs I took, the relationships I pursued, the places I resided.

But then I just quit, a bit more than 11 years ago, when it became apparent that it was killing me. No "treatment program," no medications. No meetings.

Since then, I've angered several people who say they are "trying to quit" smoking or drinking or whatever drug(s) they habitually use. Ain't no "trying" about it, I say. You either quit or you don't. A person who professes she is "trying to quit" smoking while lighting a cigarette might be fooling herself, but she isn't fooling me.
 

vallettavalentine

New in Town
Messages
36
Location
West Haven, CT USA
As for panhandlers, I have zero patience or tolerance for them. In college, I worked at a photocopy place almost full-time, taking a full class load, and taking Army ROTC. I didn't get a scholarship either, because of the age I was when I was done with the program.
Anyway, the business was wedged between the Catholic church and the rescue mission down the street. We would get hit up by panhandlers every single time any of us walked outside. Here we were, making just a little over minimum wage, working our Collective butts off, and people that we knew were professional panhandlers, going around asking us for money literally every time we turned around.
We had heard every single sob story you could possibly imagine, countless times over. That was a long time ago, but I never forgot it. Sympathy and empathy? I leave those at the door.
Where I live, there's literally a person with a clever saying on a cardboard sign on every street corner everywhere you go. People flock to the part of the country I live in, from other places, because they're treated like royalty around here. No one will tell them to leave, and I had better rights than some of the people who work really hard.
Generally speaking, I don't bother responding to them. But every now and then, something snapped. Like that day in Chicago, here was a person who literally thought the world owed her living. And I just couldn't take it anymore, because I had just walked by about two dozen exactly like her.
I'm not lucky, I've worked darn hard to get where I am in life. Sure, there are some things you're born with you just can't escape, like issues with your health. But to degree, we make our own luck in life. I've had to do some pretty unspeakable things along the way, but they were the things I had to do to get where I am now. I have neither the patience, the empathy, Ori even feel that obligated have any, for those who choose a life of expecting everyone else to do things for them.
You should be more concerned with the fact modern society actually requires a concept such as "Giving Tuesday" to make people aware of the fact that others may not have what they do--that the average American has to be jarred out of their selfish mentality to actually stop and consider others for five seconds. Also, I suggest you learn about the concept of tzedakah. We Jews take it so seriously that we have a traditional box for the funds in our houses. It's also common for us to donate funds to a charitable organisation when there's a big life event, holidays, etc.
 

vallettavalentine

New in Town
Messages
36
Location
West Haven, CT USA
While I would personally steer clear of any addiction treatment program with a religious bent, the more secular ones of my acquaintance are also to a large degree "faith based" -- not overtly religious, perhaps, but grounded in what is more an article of faith than anything truly scientific.

Disease models pose more questions than they answer. it appears that such thinking is falling out of fashion in the field. That's all to the better.

Substance abuse -- smoking and drinking, mostly -- was once so central to my life that I entertained no illusions that I would ever quit. It influenced (dictated, really) the jobs I took, the relationships I pursued, the places I resided.

But then I just quit, a bit more than 11 years ago, when it became apparent that it was killing me. No "treatment program," no medications. No meetings.

Since then, I've angered several people who say they are "trying to quit" smoking or drinking or whatever drug(s) they habitually use. Ain't no "trying" about it, I say. You either quit or you don't. A person who professes she is "trying to quit" smoking while lighting a cigarette might be fooling herself, but she isn't fooling me.
I'm much the same way, but being on the autism spectrum, it's hard for me to understand addiction. I get it from a neurological perspective, but I just can't comprehend a substance ruling my life because for me, it's not possible. It angers people when I ask how they can allow that to happen, but I truly want to know--it's not a judgement on my part, just that I can't picture myself in their shoes, so to speak. I hope this makes sense.
 
Messages
10,756
Location
My mother's basement
I'm much the same way, but being on the autism spectrum, it's hard for me to understand addiction. I get it from a neurological perspective, but I just can't comprehend a substance ruling my life because for me, it's not possible. It angers people when I ask how they can allow that to happen, but I truly want to know--it's not a judgement on my part, just that I can't picture myself in their shoes, so to speak. I hope this makes sense.

Addiction is similar to (but not exactly the same as) a biological necessity, such as hydration and nutrition. The addict senses the "need" for his or her poison of choice. Just gotta have it. Or so he thinks.

Where I part company with some people is that while I recognize the similarity, I certainly don't conflate the two. And neither would they, if they gave it a bit more thought. But they don't. It's like a religion to them, taken entirely on faith.

It was more true a couple of decades ago that some (subscribers to the disease model of addiction, mostly) were making "diseases" of "addictions" to sex or food or even love. Sure, there are similarities in the behavior of those addicted to certain substances and chronic overeaters and compulsive horndogs and that person who meets the true love of her life every couple-three months. But it isn't the same thing at all, and treating it as such creates more problems than it solves.
 

vallettavalentine

New in Town
Messages
36
Location
West Haven, CT USA
Addiction is similar to (but not exactly the same as) a biological necessity, such as hydration and nutrition. The addict senses the "need" for his or her poison of choice. Just gotta have it. Or so he thinks.

Where I part company with some people is that while I recognize the similarity, I certainly don't conflate the two. And neither would they, if they gave it a bit more thought. But they don't. It's like a religion to them, taken entirely on faith.

It was more true a couple of decades ago that some (subscribers to the disease model of addiction, mostly) were making "diseases" of "addictions" to sex or food or even love. Sure, there are similarities in the behavior of those addicted to certain substances and chronic overeaters and compulsive horndogs and that person who meets the true love of her life every couple-three months. But it isn't the same thing at all, and treating it as such creates more problems than it solves.
That makes sense. It's more of "When Necessity Goes Wrong," I guess. Thanks for the feedback!
 

Lean'n'mean

I'll Lock Up
Messages
4,079
Location
Cloud-cuckoo-land
I'm much the same way, but being on the autism spectrum, it's hard for me to understand addiction. I get it from a neurological perspective, but I just can't comprehend a substance ruling my life because for me, it's not possible. It angers people when I ask how they can allow that to happen, but I truly want to know--it's not a judgement on my part, just that I can't picture myself in their shoes, so to speak. I hope this makes sense.

Yes, that makes sense. People don't 'allow' themselves to become addicted though, they simply start out believing they are in control & then the ever increasing need starts to control them.
 

scottyrocks

I'll Lock Up
Messages
9,169
Location
Isle of Langerhan, NY
New York used to have four big network radio stations and a legion of independent stations, many of them working on shared-time arrangements, but since the consolidation of radio ownership of the last thirty years or so, there's just no room for the little guys anymore. I dearly miss the old WNEW 1130, the best independent radio station in America, and the quality music it played, and its 50,000 watt blowtorch signal up the eastern seaboard. I don't know why "Bloomberg Business Radio" feels like it needs that signal, since I can find "Bloomberg Business Radio" about fifty different spots on the dial.

Yes, indeed. Although I couldn't appreciate it at the time, in hindsight, being able to hear hosts William B. Williams, Julius LaRosa, etc, spinning records covering the likes of FSinatra, JMathis, TBennett, DMartin, PLee, etc, would be all I would be tuned in to these days.
 

sheeplady

I'll Lock Up
Bartender
Messages
4,479
Location
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, USA
Also, there's a growing body of research proving that some of us are more prone to addiction than others. Some of these influences on our likelihood to become addicted start when we are in the womb (not to mention genetics).

For instance, a child born to a woman under severe stress during her pregnancy is more likely to become an addict than a child born to a mother without a severe stress load.
 
Messages
10,756
Location
My mother's basement
Also, there's a growing body of research proving that some of us are more prone to addiction than others. Some of these influences on our likelihood to become addicted start when we are in the womb (not to mention genetics).

For instance, a child born to a woman under severe stress during her pregnancy is more likely to become an addict than a child born to a mother without a severe stress load.

How are the effects of that maternal stress isolated from the other factors potentially resulting in a higher likelihood of addiction in offspring, of which that stress may be but a piece?

I'm not disputing it, as I have no familiarity at all with the research. Still, I wonder if we might be looking at something akin to "the families having dinner together" advocates who focus on the act of dining together as though that were the primary factor in certain favorable outcomes.

I'm curious about this research, as my mother must have had a terribly stressful time of it while she was pregnant with me. She had been 22 for a month and a half when I, her third child, was born. Her husband was dying of colon cancer. He'd be dead when I was four months old. And of my siblings I adopted the most addictive ways. But you gotta wonder about the effects of birth order and early childhood experiences and role models and, and, and ...
 

sheeplady

I'll Lock Up
Bartender
Messages
4,479
Location
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, USA
How are the effects of that maternal stress isolated from the other factors potentially resulting in a higher likelihood of addiction in offspring, of which that stress may be but a piece?

I'm not disputing it, as I have no familiarity at all with the research. Still, I wonder if we might be looking at something akin to "the families having dinner together" advocates who focus on the act of dining together as though that were the primary factor in certain favorable outcomes.

I'm curious about this research, as my mother must have had a terribly stressful time of it while she was pregnant with me. She had been 22 for a month and a half when I, her third child, was born. Her husband was dying of colon cancer. He'd be dead when I was four months old. And of my siblings I adopted the most addictive ways. But you gotta wonder about the effects of birth order and early childhood experiences and role models and, and, and ...
Well, it's impossible to tangle all that out and I am not an addiction researcher. However, what I have seen are retrospective studies that look at a number of factors and this runs more significant than other factors. In other words, looking across siblings and upbringing and resources and... etc. this still runs as a significant factor.

It's really difficult to do a prospective experimental study of this stuff (and unethical). You can't assign women to highly stressful situations then track their children for 40 years.
 
Messages
10,756
Location
My mother's basement
Well, it's impossible to tangle all that out and I am not an addiction researcher. However, what I have seen are retrospective studies that look at a number of factors and this runs more significant than other factors. In other words, looking across siblings and upbringing and resources and... etc. this still runs as a significant factor.

It's really difficult to do a prospective experimental study of this stuff (and unethical). You can't assign women to highly stressful situations then track their children for 40 years.

Which is my point. Like much in the addiction research field, it comes (or ought to) with many a caveat.
 

ChiTownScion

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,243
Location
The Great Pacific Northwest
My grandfather said on the front during WWII the Salvation Army provided free coffee while the Red Cross charged 5 cents. I always give to the bell ringers but have avoided giving to the Red Cross, proving the ability of my family to hold a multi-generational grudge. Also, i know several stores that do not allow bell ringers to be present outside (their choice), and I choose not to shop at those stores and take my business to where the bell ringers are during those months.


I heard that one from members of the Greatest Generation (including my Dad) as well. By way of caveat, I was also told that the British Red Cross had to do so as a means of recouping costs, and that the American National Red Cross followed suit in order not to cause friction between the two organizations. My Nam vet friends informed me that the Red Cross never charged for such things, so it's just one of those things, I guess.


The whole situation with the British Red Cross really enhances my empathy- and admiration- for Mr. Tommy Atkins of the UK. The Brits were paid about a fifth of what like ranked US soldiers were paid, and that surcharge for a cuppa joe (or tea?) must have hit them pretty hard. They also were "in it" from September 1, 1939 until the end: we in the US didn't join the fight until December of '41. Dad had a lot of respect for our British Allies: I share that.
 

Edward

Bartender
Messages
24,905
Location
London, UK
It'll be interesting to see how this digital age of ours will affect our giving habits.

Like Yogi, I'm reluctant to make predictions, especially about the future. But I've noted a trend of getting donors to sign up for a monthly contribution of, say, 10 bucks, which is debited automatically from one's checking account. Easier to get them to give it up in 12 little bites than one big one during the semi-annual on-air beg-a-thon.

It's a good idea. Here in the UK, the idea of monthy direct dbit giving has been around a long time; theminimum is two or three pounds which you don't notice, but over the courseo f the year adds up to more than many people might think to give to a particular charity. The controversal bit here is that the people who sign folks up to it on the street are employed on a commission basis to do so, and it often takes a year before (at minimum rate) what the charities gain makes back what the agencies who employ the Chuggers ("Charity Muggers") cost. Still, the charities keep employing this route, so they must find it worth it....

The more dangerous effect of the web for charities is how social media warps people's conception of 'helping' charity. An awful lot of people these days will be happy to change their facebook avatar or pour water over themselves and post a video online or somesuch, and thnk somewhow they're helping Raise Awareness, but it's of little practical help for the charity in ral terms in most cases....



Today, the SA is losing a lot of favor in our area for its stance on GBLT issues -- it may do good in its charity work, certainly but it's still a religious organization with a firmly fundamentalist worldview. Those who don't choose to support that particular brand of religion will often pass up the kettles and support other locally-based charity groups such as our local Interfaith Food Pantry, which has no doctrinal affiliation.

Reports on especially this issue and how it has been dealt with by the American Sally Army have very much hurt the British organisation (which by and large s a different beast on the ground). Certainly true that the Brit Sally As will not accept a gay person for membership (in the same way as they will not accept a smoker, a drinker, someone who cohabits unmarried....), BUT what all those who crow about this either forget or don't know is that when the AIDS crisis first hit in the Eighties, when the mainstream press were openly calling it "the gay plauge" and far worse, the Sally Army were there. When professional nurses were refusing to enter AIDS wardsor deal with those patients, and those who did wore HASMAT suits, it was the Sally Army who quietly went in there as themselves and held those people's hands as they died, showed them some human compassion. Folks can say a lot about the Sally Army, some of it fair, but much of the time they're out there doing work somebody needs to, and nobody else will - least of all, oftentimes, their critics.
 

sheeplady

I'll Lock Up
Bartender
Messages
4,479
Location
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, USA
Sheeplady.. I came across this regarding the Red Cross charge. Slightly different story from what I was told:

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/...the-cost-of-free-doughnuts-70-years-of-regret
Interesting. I'm glad that at least someone else had heard of the story, and it's documented! This was my grandfather's most common war story... showing how angry he was about it 40-50 years later. Everytime a red cross ad came on television. Although I think my grandfather had the common belief everybody saw bad things, did bad things, etc. and you just didn't talk about said things, which Is why I never heard much else.

But charging for coffee was acceptable to talk about. :)
 

GHT

I'll Lock Up
Messages
9,551
Location
New Forest
It'll be interesting to see how this digital age of ours will affect our giving habits.
church5.jpg
The Catholic church has adopted the digital era, no longer is there a collection plate, but a digital platform:
It's called Papal.
 
Messages
10,756
Location
My mother's basement
In a similar vein …

What’s y’all’s take in the sidewalk/highway median/public park tent dwellers?

I’m not torn on this so much as I am understanding of the many and varied perspectives on the matter and of how people came to hold those views.

I just don’t want to see it normalized. I can’t accept that we as a society and all of us as individuals, the tent dwellers themselves included, will tolerate a somewhat sizable percentage of us living that way. Nor do I accept that this sad phenomenon will be with us permanently. It’s unhealthy for the people living that way, and for the rest of us, too.
 

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