American Accents in the Golden Era

[Thunderbolt]

I have always noticed but started thinking about more lately is American accents. I always found it interesting that certain parts of America developed accents despite everyone speaking English. What is even more amazing that a small country like England can also have different accents like London and Liverpool. Anyway, American Accents of the Golden Era. Since I didn't live durring the time, I can only base this off what I've seen from films of the time. Is it just me or does it seem like a current day New York accent was abundent back then? Looney Tunes always had a character shouting in a loud New York accent. Police always sound Irish, and what's with the English accent? I have heard an English accent in many films I thought were made by and featuring Americans not acting English. For example, the good witch in the "Wizard of Oz", the narrator on the original AAF documanary of the "Memphis Belle", and Mary (Stuart's wife) in "It's a Wonderfull life". I could keep going on about English accents spoken by American characters in American movies but I haven't the time. Any thoughts? I wouldn't expect Americans as having English accents unless it was the dawn of the 19th century or if they were a first generation immigrant. I find it sort of charming, and not a bad thing.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I suspect that the English accent, or more accurately, an English-sounding accent was an affectation adopted by some Golden Era Americans who were either upper class or had upper class aspirations. England had a much greater influence on American culture in the 19th and early 20th centuries than it does today and, consequently, many of the schools where America's elite were educated had a decidedly Anglocentric focus. That's probably why in many old movies, rich society people are almost always portrayed as speaking in a vaguely English-sounding accent.

 

[Lokar]

What is even more amazing that a small country like England can also have different accents like London and Liverpool.

This is largely, I believe, due to the fact that the language came to exist in England (and the rest of the British Isles), and each region developed their own dialect and accent before the radio, telephone, television, train, or motor car. The differences are fading fast though - I grew up in the West Country, and I only knew one person who went to school while I was there who had a proper West Country accent. Most people speak with a strange hybrid of several English accents, combined with some American pronunciation on some words (and American dialect).

 

[LizzieMaine]

I suspect that the English accent, or more accurately, an English-sounding accent was an affectation adopted by some Golden Era Americans who were either upper class or had upper class aspirations. England had a much greater influence on American culture in the 19th and early 20th centuries than it does today and, consequently, many of the schools where America's elite were educated had a decidedly Anglocentric focus. That's probably why in many old movies, rich society people are almost always portrayed as speaking in a vaguely English-sounding accent.

During the changeover from silents to talkies, quite a few performers took elocution lessons from teachers who emphasized exactly that sort of upper-class pronunciation -- derisively called "Kansas City British" by critics who thought it sounded phony and affected. That's a major reason why you hear that sort of dialect in movies far more often than it would have actually turned up in real life.

There was much more variation in American dialects before radio, and especially before television. You could often not only tell if someone came from a specific city but exactly what part of that city simply from listening to them talk for a few minutes, but mass media has done much toward exterminating those differences.

 

[Edward]

This is largely, I believe, due to the fact that the language came to exist in England (and the rest of the British Isles), and each region developed their own dialect and accent before the radio, telephone, television, train, or motor car. The differences are fading fast though - I grew up in the West Country, and I only knew one person who went to school while I was there who had a proper West Country accent. Most people speak with a strange hybrid of several English accents, combined with some American pronunciation on some words (and American dialect).

Yes, I see the old dialects fading in a lot of places, and being replaced by rampant Americanisms, which is a shame. I think the dialects will go faster than the accents. I also notice that accents are markedly less pronounced among the middle classes.... especially in an area like Liverpool, and even moreso in Belfast.

Northern Ireland in general is a place apart for accents - at least the part of the place I'm from originally, the accent changes very markedly every five miles up the road - yes, as little as that. Even within Belfast, which you can walk across in maybe an hour, one end to the other (ok, well certainly within two hours at the outside), there are very marked West and East Belfast accents, and local folks can tell which end of town you're from by that alone, times.

 

[dhermann1]

I've always wondered about the broad R sound, so common in movies of the 30's. My grandmother (born in New York in 1885) had it, but her mother was English. If you listen to newsreels, that's where you can pick up some authentic speech patterns. But it's not only the accent, it's the placement and production of the voice that's striking. Americans today (especially the males) seem to have voices that sound very adolescent to my ears, compared to past generations. That's very noticeable in WW II films.
My theory is that the last couple of generations have grown up listening to lots of TV, and the speakers on most TV's cut off both the high and low end of the voices. I think hearing that has affected the speech of Americans a lot. Also, until the mid 20th century the only public address system was the human lung. Woodrow Wilson went across the country making speeches in front of tens of thousands of people, with no amplification whatsover. Imagine 100,000 people in Soldier Field in Chicago, without, arrording to what I read, any sound system. No wonder he had a stroke. But people learned how to use their voices in a way that made the sound carry much better than it does now. In theaters there were no sound systems. Actors projected.
Robert MacNeil of PBS narrated a great series a number of years ago called "The Story of English". He delves into regional American dialects a lot. There are many along the east coast, because that's where the earliest individual enclaves were founded, and many of them still remain. Maryland, for example, has several unique and downright startling variations on the language. Let's not even talk about New England. ("Cahn't get theah from heah.") As Americans moved west, they were channeled into certain corridors of access to the interior. The result was a mixing of speech and a standardization. By the time people made it to the west coast, most regional variations had disappeared. And TV has had the further effect of wiping out regional speech variations.

 

[Delthayre]

The obvious villain is just the patsy

Television, film, radio and et cetera probably have not been the chief cause of widely spread dialect leveling. This is a common theory, but I doubt its correctness.

Language is more a product of active interaction, not passive absorption or imitation. Popular media might spread some words and establish the 'prestige dialect', but it is talking with people that sets the standards of speech. Popular media have grown in scope, depth of penetration and pervasiveness over time, but there are two other trends that probably mattered far more: greater mobility and economic growth.

In the same era as various forms of transmission became commoner, so did methods of travel become quicker, commoner, cheaper and more convenient. Hand in hand with those gross domestic product grew, both spurring those developments, allowing more people to attain them and increasing the use of them. Economic growth commonly causes a migration of rural people to cities or other centers of population and this is a serious agent of language change. If people live for generations in the same place, interacting chiefly with one another, they will generate a set of customs and manner of talking peculiar to their society, but if people from all of those peculiar places come together in one place, each respect peculiar way and manner of speech will be to varying degrees incomprehensible to everyone else. Such blending of diverse groups will naturally lead to the creation a new standard among them. This standard will usually follow the dialect of those who are socially prominent and prosperous, which is to say those with the greatest prestige.

People in developed nations can travel so easily, widely and frequently that this standardization occurs on a grand scale. I have a friend who was raised here in the Leigh Valley in more or less the same setting as I, but who now lives in Renton, Washington, whereas a few generations ago many people might not wander far from their home county. I doubt that he would have gotten very far if he had spoken, as we well might have back then, in thickly 'Dutchified' English.

Language is commonly caught up in the thorny web of culture, but it is really the ultimate free market commodity. It is a free, emergent and spontaneous order created by unplanned, self-organizing interaction and has thus far resisted almost all regulation. Consider the vast gulf between the way that French is spoken on the streets of Paris, or elsewhere, and what L'Académie française vociferously, but futily prescribes.

 

[Senator Jack]

The New York accent is dead even in New York. When I was a kid, there were guys in the neighborhood that still used 'kern' for 'coin' and 'earl' for 'oil'. Use that accent now, even as an homage, and no one understands what you're saying.

 

[Feraud]

Great points Senator Jack. Just this morning I was going to add how the New York accent is dead in the Vintage Things That Have Disappeared In Your Lifetime? thread. My dad still says oil like 'earl', boiler is 'berler', and wrestling as 'wrassling'.

 

[Senator Jack]

A filmmaker is currently shooting a documentary about the NY accent. It's called 'If These Knishes Could Talk'. She had expressed some interest about my being in it, but I don't what happened to it. I suppose I should contact here again. There's a bit about it here http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1449183/ and there's a facebook page for it too.

 

[Feraud]

A great title for the doc. lol

 

[Avalon]

Great points Senator Jack. Just this morning I was going to add how the New York accent is dead in the Vintage Things That Have Disappeared In Your Lifetime? thread. My dad still says oil like 'earl', boiler is 'berler', and wrestling as 'wrassling'.

One of my favorite taxi drivers still pronounces things like this. One time he was telling me about a "terlitberl" he saw on the side of the road. Took me a couple of tries before I realized he'd seen an abandoned toilet. :eusa_doh:

Long Island has an accent all its own. lol

 

[Feraud]

Oh right. My dad also say terlet for toilet! Ah we really need to get the ol timer some elocution lessons. lol

 

[dhermann1]

My old neighbor in Windsor Terrace, Brooklyn, had a girlfriend (who he later married, I think disastrously ) named Jerce. He made his cherce! It couldn't a been woise!
Actually, I think I've read that what we think of as the old New York accent derived from the Irish. There are plenty of new variations on the theme tho. There is a whole new NewYorican dialect, that takes sounds form the old New York lexicon, and combines them with Spanish inflections. This town never stops changing.

 

[Foofoogal]

One time I was on TV and am still horrified how Southern I sounded.
Picture Tammy Wynette.
I was so disappointed as in the 6th. grade I went to a school on an Army base and kids from all over the world called me Kentucky Fried Chicken and wanted to hear me "say something." I was not amused.
So I thought somehow miraculously I had grown out of it when I went on the show as an adult. Not..[huh]

 

[Mr. 'H']

Actually, I think I've read that what we think of as the old New York accent derived from the Irish.

I ain't su'prised!

Slán (Gaelic for "goodbye") is pretty much pronounced in Irish as Jimmy Cagney would pronounce "So long" in the 30s.

 

[Mr. 'H']

Here's the book that explains it all:

 

[Atinkerer]

You from da Bronx?

Hi,

Up until about the early 1970's each of New York City's 5 boroughs had it's own very distinctive accent. And having grown up in NYC I could easily tell what borough someone came from as soon as they said something.

Sometimes, if you knew a borough well enough, you could even tell what section a person was from by their accent - like Coney Island sounded different than Bay Ridge. We could also quickly peg someone who was from New Jersey, or from out on Long Island.

When I drove down south once in the early 1970's I had a hard time even understanding people from the deep south. Not surprisingly, when I got to Florida the accent was closer to the NYC accent I was used to, but that's because half the people there were originally from NYC I think.

My guess is that before TV and nation wide broadcasts, every neighborhood had its own accent.

I sort of miss that.

Tony

PS: I agree with Delthayre that greater mobility was also a big part of the reason for the loss of very distinct local accents.

 

[Miss Jess]

Fascinating thread. I have to say that here in Indiana, having been raised in a small town near Indy, I can definitely still tell what part of the state someone is from. Especially after I went to college. Region Rats (Gary/Lake County area) all speak with that nasally Chicago-meets-Minnesota sound, Central IN is fairly neutral but still a bit nasal mixed with a little twang (me!), and anyone in the southern part of the state (including my husband's family) speaks with a soft Kentuckian accent. Interesting, and there are very clear geographic lines in regards to these 3 accents.

I had a fairly neutral accent that leaned more towards twang until I hit college and starting living with a bunch of Chicagoans. It's amazing the things you pick up without realizing!

 

[reetpleat]

A filmmaker is currently shooting a documentary about the NY accent. It's called 'If These Knishes Could Talk'. She had expressed some interest about my being in it, but I don't what happened to it. I suppose I should contact here again. There's a bit about it here http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1449183/ and there's a facebook page for it too.

Do you ever hear anyone say "leave us go..." From listening to a production on the radio of Bang The Drum SLowly, I was informed that up to the fifties, it was not uncommon in Brooklyn instead of let's go .....

As in Leave us go down the street and get a beer.

Interestingly, the Yat dialect of New Orleans is said to be very similar to Brooklyn etc, although it also is surely dissapearing.

A quote used as forward to A Confederacy of Dunces,

There is a New Orleans city accent . . . associated with downtown New Orleans, particularly with the German and Irish Third Ward, that is hard to distinguish from the accent of Hoboken, Jersey City, and Astoria, Long Island, where the Al Smith inflection, extinct in Manhattan, has taken refuge. The reason, as you might expect, is that the same stocks that brought the accent to Manhattan imposed it on New Orleans.[2]