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Bill Hughes

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,893
Location
North Texas
Respectfully, I disagree. We don’t live in a time with the rigid rules of etiquette that previous generations did. We also don’t live in a world where most restaurants offer a coat and hat check…at least not in the warmer climes where I live. If I’m wearing a hat, and my car is a mile away, and the restaurant doesn’t offer a safe place to store my hat, it stays on my head while I eat. The people who would think that boorish or ignorant are not those whose opinions I care about.

Obsessive following or old etiquette rules can come across as an affectation. Like tipping your hat to women while giving them the “m’lady” salutation. Also think about the why. Why remove your hat while dining? Are you blocking someone’s view? If the function no longer exists but the custom remains I just don’t give it much weight. I have nothing against those who choose to follow old etiquette rules, but I don’t find it in the least bit offensive if others chose otherwise.

Feel free to disagree. :)
Taking a hat off at the table - it’s just the way I was raised. I have yet to not find a place to put my hat. I have a little hanger that allows me to hang it on the back of my chair in most cases. While serving in the Marine Corps there were times when I was required to keep my cover (hat) on while eating in the chow hall. It always bothered me but I did it. I live in Texas and often see men in cowboy hats and caps eating in restaurants without removing them. I find it distasteful but would never try to impose my view nor say anything. If you are sitting at my table - then the rules change.

960584B4-5340-419B-839C-A01A06348867.jpegF2D15044-0BF7-4802-BBF9-902A2DFE2F1F.jpeg
 
Messages
17,577
Location
Funkytown, USA
I don’t disagree with you at all.

Perhaps I worded my post poorly, but people eating in public while wearing a baseball cap strike me as rude. I am very much an antique, my grandparents were born in the 1880s and my parents before 1910. I was a little boy during the late 1930s. I don’t remember my grandparents as rigid, but they were certainly proper, and my upbringing definitely reflected their standards, both directly and though my parents. I guess some of it survives to this day.

Your points are well taken, and I think the hat will stay on.

Thank you.

It can get contentious when discussing, but to me it's part and parcel of a general breakdown in etiquette and manners that makes life a bit more coarse than it should be. I mean, what's the practical purpose of opening a door for a lady? Or changing out of your PJ's to go shopping? I mean, if it works for you, it must be OK is the modern perspective.

Objective standards are so antiquated and passé.
 

belfastboy

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,440
Location
vancouver, canada
It can get contentious when discussing, but to me it's part and parcel of a general breakdown in etiquette and manners that makes life a bit more coarse than it should be. I mean, what's the practical purpose of opening a door for a lady? Or changing out of your PJ's to go shopping? I mean, if it works for you, it must be OK is the modern perspective.

Objective standards are so antiquated and passé.
I too was raised 'old school'...1950's & 60's....... but have a different perspective. My wife and I dine out but these days not much if at all in 'fine dining' establishments. We prefer our own cooking for the most part. So our date nights (or days) are at ethnic restaurants or craft brew joints....decidedly on the casual side. We dress up...sort of....and I invariably leave my hat on.....as does my wife. It seems to suit the time and place. I do still hold the doors for women (and for men as the occasion suits), open the car door for my wife but I do usually leave my hat on.
 

belfastboy

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,440
Location
vancouver, canada
I’ve tried to find the answer on other threads, but can’t find anything specific to what I’m looking for.
How do you go about cleaning a fabric sweatband on a toyo straw hat? It’s in its 5th season. I haven’t sweated profusely in it, but there’s just a little grime build-up visible.
One further thought: I have discovered the key when cleaning about anything is that the 'dirt/soiling' has to have a pathway out of the fibre.

Cleaning it with soap or whatever is not enough. The area needs to be flooded with water in order to flush the dirt away. Otherwise you end up just chasing the stain around or at best diluting it.
 
Messages
15,559
Location
Central California
It can get contentious when discussing, but to me it's part and parcel of a general breakdown in etiquette and manners that makes life a bit more coarse than it should be. I mean, what's the practical purpose of opening a door for a lady? Or changing out of your PJ's to go shopping? I mean, if it works for you, it must be OK is the modern perspective.

Objective standards are so antiquated and passé.


There was a time when the less formal dinner jacket/suit (aka tuxedo) caused a scandal. Of course it you wear a dinner jacket most places today you are an overdressed oddity. Professional or white collar workers wouldn’t consider wearing anything less than a suit to work. Sport coats were for sporting events and men’s etiquette called for ties or some sort of neckwear for fishing, shooting, golfing etc. Even blue collar workers wore suits to church and ties were not optional. Tweeds were only for the country and no gentleman would be seen in public in his shirt sleeves! We all draw the line at different places and I’d care as much about someone thinking I shouldn’t wear my hat at a restaurant as you might for someone thinking you were dressed inappropriately for church if not wearing a suit and tie.

I agree that the falling standards are not to my tastes, but I’m also not wanting go back to where things were. I do think that kindness and consideration for others are timeless attributes of someone who was raised right, but all the contrived rules of etiquette that are not based on something more substantial than tradition are open to personal interpretation.
 
Messages
17,577
Location
Funkytown, USA
There was a time when the less formal dinner jacket/suit (aka tuxedo) caused a scandal. Of course it you wear a dinner jacket most places today you are an overdressed oddity. Professional or white collar workers wouldn’t consider wearing anything less than a suit to work. Sport coats were for sporting events and men’s etiquette called for ties or some sort of neckwear for fishing, shooting, golfing etc. Even blue collar workers wore suits to church and ties were not optional. Tweeds were only for the country and no gentleman would be seen in public in his shirt sleeves! We all draw the line at different places and I’d care as much about someone thinking I shouldn’t wear my hat at a restaurant as you might for someone thinking you were dressed inappropriately for church if not wearing a suit and tie.

I agree that the falling standards are not to my tastes, but I’m also not wanting go back to where things were. I do think that kindness and consideration for others are timeless attributes of someone who was raised right, but all the contrived rules of etiquette that are not based on something more substantial than tradition are open to personal interpretation.

You present a false choice. There is no need to "go back to where things were," nor am I advocating it. What I'm decrying is the prevailing more that it is best if everybody decides for themselves what is appropriate without a care for those around them. Many of the rules of etiquette have solid foundations in practicality and respect for others. Just because it's been lost to history and ignorance why doesn't mean it doesn't provide some benefit.

I take a holistic view toward etiquette, and take seriously how a person fits into civilization. Civilization needs guardrails or it isn't civilized. I could go on and on about deconstructionism, the Frankfurt School, and various other things that have gotten us to where we are, but that's a subject that requires more than I'd like to get into.

All this sounds like nonsense when talking about hat wearing, but etiquette and manners are lubrication that allows for civilization to function without descending into anarchy. The little things count, too. Call it the "broken windows" theory of preserving society.
 
Messages
17,577
Location
Funkytown, USA
I too was raised 'old school'...1950's & 60's....... but have a different perspective. My wife and I dine out but these days not much if at all in 'fine dining' establishments. We prefer our own cooking for the most part. So our date nights (or days) are at ethnic restaurants or craft brew joints....decidedly on the casual side. We dress up...sort of....and I invariably leave my hat on.....as does my wife. It seems to suit the time and place. I do still hold the doors for women (and for men as the occasion suits), open the car door for my wife but I do usually leave my hat on.

I was raised to be mannerly and polite. While I agree a good portion of the relaxing of standards has been a good thing, we've had a tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Just because some societal rules no longer make sense doesn't mean we should throw them all out (not that you're arguing for that).

I do "fine dining" probably a half-dozen times a year and, lie you we usually go to a pub or other casual joint for meals. I normally don't find it much of a challenge to find a place for my hat. During the summer, we usually go for the patio (and sometimes bring our pooch), so that's even more casual.

But it's also part of my personality to like procedures and rituals. Probably the engineer/scientist in me. Or Catholicism, LOL.
 

AbbaDatDeHat

I'll Lock Up
Messages
7,955
^^after a certain age (let’s say older) it would seem to me that one should do whatever they want as long as it doesn’t violate another person’s rights or the law, without worry.
If i see a grandpa minding his own business with a hat on in a restaurant who the hell am i to past judgment.
It’s not my business and to make it mine disrespects the fact that the old guy made as far as he has and a big hell yeah to him.
I would hope after a certain age people would have worried that stuff away and become comfortable in themselves knowing it doesn’t make a difference in anything.
This applies to most things from hats to hand grenades.
YMMV
B
 
Messages
17,577
Location
Funkytown, USA
^^after a certain age (let’s say older) it would seem to me that one should do whatever they want as long as it doesn’t violate another person’s rights or the law, without worry.
If i see a grandpa minding his own business with a hat on in a restaurant who the hell am i to past judgment.
It’s not my business and to make it mine disrespects the fact that the old guy made as far as he has and a big hell yeah to him.
I would hope after a certain age people would have worried that stuff away and become comfortable in themselves knowing it doesn’t make a difference in anything.
This applies to most things from hats to hand grenades.
YMMV
B

Works both ways, doesn't it, B? To confront someone over something like that would also violate good manners and etiquette.
 

Mighty44

A-List Customer
Messages
442
Has anyone successfully used a naphtha bath to get must smell out of a hat?

Bummed to find a new purchase is really musty. I’ve been down this road before and nothing I was able to do at home—even full on soaking in vinegar—completely worked. Kind of pegging my hopes on naphtha but would welcome any insight.

Thanks,

David
 

Who?

One of the Regulars
Messages
179
Location
Vernon, CT
They tell you to bury books in cat litter In order to deodorize than.

I have no clue if this would work for a hat, and this advice is worth the exact amount you are paying for it.
 
Messages
15,559
Location
Central California
You present a false choice. There is no need to "go back to where things were," nor am I advocating it. What I'm decrying is the prevailing more that it is best if everybody decides for themselves what is appropriate without a care for those around them. Many of the rules of etiquette have solid foundations in practicality and respect for others. Just because it's been lost to history and ignorance why doesn't mean it doesn't provide some benefit.

I take a holistic view toward etiquette, and take seriously how a person fits into civilization. Civilization needs guardrails or it isn't civilized. I could go on and on about deconstructionism, the Frankfurt School, and various other things that have gotten us to where we are, but that's a subject that requires more than I'd like to get into.

All this sounds like nonsense when talking about hat wearing, but etiquette and manners are lubrication that allows for civilization to function without descending into anarchy. The little things count, too. Call it the "broken windows" theory of preserving society.


I wasn’t stating it’s an all or nothing proposition nor was I advocating going back to some earlier time. There was no choice, false or otherwise, that I was wanting anyone to make. I’m saying if we all get to pick and chose the points of etiquette we want to keep and those we disregard then asking what the rule of etiquette is for a guy in short pants and a tee shirt removing his hat in a restaurant…well the point is lost on me. If we’ve already thrown away the book it doesn’t make sense to me to dig it out and reference it for one point regarding hat wearing when dining al fresco. Such a rule seems serve no social or practical purpose and is a rule for rules sake.

I agree that we need some of these less formalized rules for society to function properly, but there’s no consensus on which are important and which should stay in history as they don’t serve a real function. For me, doffing a hat for the national Anthem makes sense as a show of respect to the country and those who have sacrificed for it. Removing it in church shows humility and reverence before God. Removing it where it might interfere or obstruct a view is showing courtesy. Removing it in another’s home shows respect and shows deference. I just don’t see what wearing a hat in a public place while eating does for the social contract. What is the point? Is it just conformity for the sake of conformity? Is it the continuance of tradition with no function other than nostalgia? Did it once serve a function that it no longer does but the “rule” remains? If we honestly consider it and the only thing we have is that’s how granddad did it or that’s how I was raised than maybe it’s not an important piece of etiquette. Not that there isn’t value in keeping traditions for their own sakes, but that’s a personal thing and not shared etiquette.

Enjoyed the rambling, but I’m not sure I did anything more than fill up some space on this thread. :)
 

Who?

One of the Regulars
Messages
179
Location
Vernon, CT
All I can say (I hope without offending) is that to someone of my generation and upbringing, if you wear a hat while eating (inside) in a restaurant, you look like an ill-mannered ignoramus.

I fully realize that such folks have absolutely no regard for the opinions of others, otherwise they would observe the norms of behavior in public. Usually they exhibit other forms of asocial conduct, frequently being loud, boisterous, and profane.

I just think it’s inconsiderate, but I may be swimming upstream here.
 

belfastboy

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,440
Location
vancouver, canada
Oh here’s another hat rule never mentioned....
I’ll always take my hat off if i get in a fight out of respect for the hat.
Unless it’s a helmet...that woud just be dumb.
B
I was a hockey goalie for a number of years. Once I got into a scrap with a guy parked in my crease. I flipped my mask off before engaging. After the game in the locker room my teammates wouldn't let it rest....."What were you thinking moron!!!!"
 
Messages
15,559
Location
Central California
All I can say (I hope without offending) is that to someone of my generation and upbringing, if you wear a hat while eating (inside) in a restaurant, you look like an ill-mannered ignoramus.

I fully realize that such folks have absolutely no regard for the opinions of others, otherwise they would observe the norms of behavior in public. Usually they exhibit other forms of asocial conduct, frequently being loud, boisterous, and profane.

I just think it’s inconsiderate, but I may be swimming upstream here.


I absolutely respect your opinion, but I just don’t see why it’s inconsiderate. Other than that’s the way you were raised, what is is about wearing a hat while eating indoors that offends? Loud and profane I get as that impacts your experience and can offend sensibilities. However, the fact that some inanimate object is quietly sitting on someone’s head that isn’t blocking your view etc., just doesn’t seem like anything to me.

Don’t get me wrong, I try to remove my hat when possible. I do it largely because their is a gentle pressure to conform and not offend and to fit in. Humans are social creatures and there doesn’t have to be a well-reasoned foundation for what we do. There is an evolutionary need to fit in and to avoid standing out. Even the rugged individualists conform more than they might like to admit.
 

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