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Bates style action back Vs. Aero style shoulder gussets

Damon141

Practically Family
Messages
557
Let’s say you were looking for a snug fit on a jacket and you were the type of guy that is prone to gaining muscle weight and loosing weight in the back or rear deltoids/shoulders from weightlifting or rowing or climbing or anything else you are in to.
Im not really talking about usefulness or functionality or if you prefer no action back, this is more about appearance if good deal on a jacket presented itself and these were the options.


For those that have had this experience, which style is more accommodating?

Or less likely to change the look of the jacket?
Blown out? Idk there probably is a term for it if someone wants to enlighten me.
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Canuck Panda

One Too Many
Messages
1,959
In my experience the lower down the gusset goes the better the movement. Also it would depend how much fold there is on the inside of the gusset. The motorcycle brands have deeper gussets for more extension.
Johnson M500 Goat 004e.JPG


The gussets will wrinkle up with wear and that might not be streamline looking. It's the price to pay for mobility.
 

Damon141

Practically Family
Messages
557
I was asking just because I’m always on the lookout for a vintage racer and most have some sort of Bi-swing back besides the Buco which is just out of reach usually price wise.

I searched and found this Cal which has a great design but I’ve never seen one for sale. I bet the new owners of Cal Leather don’t even have the pattern anymore.

But since you sometimes end up settling on size when choosing a vintage jacket. I was trying to avoid that “puffed out look” when or if the jacket is too tight.

To me it looks like the Bates might open a little less but you Tony could probably answer this because I’ve seen pictures of you in Bates and Aero shoulder gussets and you know what I mean about weight fluctuations, you looked jacked in some of your pictures

Here is a vintage Beck which looks like it wraps under the pit, I wonder if the Bates style would pull out less than the Beck
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photo2u

One Too Many
Messages
1,226
Location
claremont california
I was asking just because I’m always on the lookout for a vintage racer and most have some sort of Bi-swing back besides the Buco which is just out of reach usually price wise.

I searched and found this Cal which has a great design but I’ve never seen one for sale. I bet the new owners of Cal Leather don’t even have the pattern anymore.

But since you sometimes end up settling on size when choosing a vintage jacket. I was trying to avoid that “puffed out look” when or if the jacket is too tight.

To me it looks like the Bates might open a little less but you Tony could probably answer this because I’ve seen pictures of you in Bates and Aero shoulder gussets and you know what I mean about weight fluctuations, you looked jacked in some of your pictures

Here is a vintage Beck which looks like it wraps under the pit, I wonder if the Bates style would pull out less than the BeckView attachment 427372

The owners of the Cal Leathers do have the old patterns for many jackets they produce. I have been to the shop several times and have seen them with my own eyes. They even have patterns and original finish samples of interesting motorcycle garments very few people have seen.. They have also old school tool from cutters, presser and sewing machines. Their mouton and collar moutons are some of the best in the industry. Personally, the only ones who make a better mouton collar were original Bucos. For any one who has seen a 50s period Buco will clearly see that those collars were a high intensive pieces of work.
 

Damon141

Practically Family
Messages
557
The owners of the Cal Leathers do have the old patterns for many jackets they produce. I have been to the shop several times and have seen them with my own eyes. They still the patterns of many different motorcycle garments they produce that very few people have seen. They have also old school tool from cutters, presser and sewing machines. Their mouton and collar moutons are some of the best in the industry. Personally, the only ones who make a better mouton collar were original Bucos. For any one who has seen a 50s period Buco will clearly see that those collars were a high intensive pieces of work.
That’s awesome, the two small photos i posted above are of an apparently rare Cafe Racer by Cal Leather owned by member Monitor.

I can’t find the whole picture but I was searching for info about gussets and he posted that showing how much material was tucked away


Edit: I noticed one of my favorite designs, the Himel British Raider has a shoulder gusset which seems to be the full version
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Aloysius

Practically Family
Messages
941
I'm still not quite sure what you're asking. They're not going to 'blow out' because there's elastic to hold them in place. Appearance wise, buy what you like.

Some people here really hate bi-swing of any kind. I happen to think all forms of it look quite cool. Bi-swing shoulders would bring minimum changes to the line of the jacket from behind, if what you're after is some increased mobility (and accommodation of your muscles) with a relatively clean back. My Aero Ridley (same pattern as the board racer) has a one piece back and bi-swing shoulders. I think they add something to the look.

I think bi-swing + underarm gussets as seen on US Navy jackets and modern Schott Perfectos would be great for your build.
 

Damon141

Practically Family
Messages
557
Is it called the bat wing effect?

I read something about when certain action back jackets are too tight, that it causes a blown out look, like the extra material of the action back is forced out due to the extra pressure caused when the jacket might be slightly too tight.

I was asking which type of action back is LEAST likely to have this problem between us he full action back, the full shoulder gusset (like the vintage Beck 666 and the Aero CR’s), and the type Bates uses on its split back cafe racers.
This is the only picture I can find and it’s probably on the extreme side.51F71064-3338-4258-93CC-7EB7C4FEC5D2.jpeg
 

MrProper

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,531
Location
Europe
I was asking which type of action back is LEAST likely to have this problem
Logically, Aero's gusset must have less potential because the opening is smaller.
In the meantime, however, I am no longer a fan of gussets. I would order my Sheene today without a gusset. Visually, it is already very massive at the back.
With the 5* it is a little better.
But footballs on the armpits I like
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Aloysius

Practically Family
Messages
941
I read something about when certain action back jackets are too tight, that it causes a blown out look, like the extra material of the action back is forced out due to the extra pressure caused when the jacket might be slightly too tight.

I think the causes of this are either:

1) Downsizing, so the jacket doesn't actually fit and therefore bends in odd ways.
2) A lack of elastic to hold the gusset together, or the elastic there has worn out (an extremely easy replacement).

I wouldn't be concerned about it as a matter of course, unless you're buying the wrong size.
 

Edward

Bartender
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23,431
Location
London, UK
I think the causes of this are either:

1) Downsizing, so the jacket doesn't actually fit and therefore bends in odd ways.
2) A lack of elastic to hold the gusset together, or the elastic there has worn out (an extremely easy replacement).

I wouldn't be concerned about it as a matter of course, unless you're buying the wrong size.

Definitely downsizing is a big factor a lot of the time. I have over the years many times seen people wearing jackets simply much smaller than the design was intended to be worn. I've seen a lot of the Aero standard Highwayman, for example, being worn too small, - the "it's labelled a 38, but it fits like a 42" concept. As to jackets with these gussets, I do think a lot of folks like a specific style, but don't care for the period fit a specific pattern has been cut to, so they size down to make it tighter, but the design then doesn't work properly because it simply wasn't cut to be worn by a person that size. As Mrs Marlowe always says "Just because you can zip it up doesn't mean it fits." I think this is where it's important to be aware of how a particular pattern is cut and whether it is designed to have the desired fit, or whether the wearer should go for something else.


The elastic on a Wested Indy Raiders I wore about a decade ago wasn't great after some time, but what actually made the pleats sit funny was me gaining quite a lot of weight to the point where I could still wear it, but my added mass popped the pleats out all the time. I think that's something that happens too because it's not something you see when you pull the jacket on, so it can *feel* right from the wearer's pov.
 

Damon141

Practically Family
Messages
557
Buying the wrong size a very strong possibility lol.
The reason I was collecting info on this is because one day a vintage jacket in good condition with close enough measurements will cross my path and there is a good chance it might be a little tight at times because I like to work out and fluctuate 10lbs up and down, so I was just trying to determine the worst kinds of action backs to avoid in a senecio like that.

Ofcourse I’d rather not have an action back but most of the vintage racers in good condition and reasonable price have action backs in one form or another.
The two that I know of that don’t (Buco and HD Sportster) are usually to expensive for me, where as Brooks, Bates, Lesco, Kehoe etc all have some kind of bi-swing back but tend to be in better condition and reasonable in price
 

Aloysius

Practically Family
Messages
941
I think with your build you could actually make the big 1940s/1950s v-shape work really well, Damon. It would also cover your weight fluctuations, and just look really flattering.
 

dannyk

One Too Many
Messages
1,812
I think with your build you could actually make the big 1940s/1950s v-shape work really well, Damon. It would also cover your weight fluctuations, and just look really flattering.
I think you’re on the money here. A lot of people don’t like that look because it’s not exactly a shape modern eyes are used to. But if you work out and naturally have a v shape to your upper body the 40s-50s cut could be perfect for you regardless of any footballs, gussets or bi-swings. Now finding a style from back then you like, coming across a vintage model in a modern size, or finding one in good enough shape could become quite the waiting game and require vigilance and a good eye; but might just be worth it.
 
Messages
15,222
Shoulder gussets are a science of a kind, which many makers do not seem to understand.

Cal on their early Cafe Racer, Beck 666 and several others, made it right. They understood 100% what shoulder gusset is supposed to be doing and why and IMO, they did the best job at them at a price of a more complicated construction and some possible discomfort under arms.

With straight, sort of semi-action back gussets, Bates and Schott perfected it. Bates even took it a step further, knowing the gussets don't have to extend all the way toward the seam that extends across the shoulders because there's nothing going on up there.

Gussets on Aero jackets (among others & this isn't Aero's fault; They just based their design on a vintage example) stop where most pulling occurs which in turn completely negates the point. The fact that they're stitched on the outside of the seam, rather than buried inside, needlessly adds even more stress to the seams.

So in short, as @Canuck Panda stated; The lower the gusset extends, the better - Or the more it extends toward the armpit.

Blowout of the folded material is avoidable by correctly placed elastic bands. That's all there is to it & done one properly, there's no fear of it ever happening.

In any case, here's a... Don't know how to call it, but anyway, this is where most stress on the back of the jacket occurs, red obviously being where most stress happens & green representing least.

DSC05141.jpg
 

Aloysius

Practically Family
Messages
941
I think you’re on the money here. A lot of people don’t like that look because it’s not exactly a shape modern eyes are used to. But if you work out and naturally have a v shape to your upper body the 40s-50s cut could be perfect for you regardless of any footballs, gussets or bi-swings. Now finding a style from back then you like, coming across a vintage model in a modern size, or finding one in good enough shape could become quite the waiting game and require vigilance and a good eye; but might just be worth it.

Carrie from Thurston talked me through this because I wanted one of those jackets myself— she pointed out (politely, lol) that for people without an upper body like Damon, the Ridley cut works better than the 40s v. But on them it works perfectly.
 

El Marro

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,115
Location
California
Shoulder gussets are a science of a kind, which many makers do not seem to understand.

Cal on their early Cafe Racer, Beck 666 and several others, made it right. They understood 100% what shoulder gusset is supposed to be doing and why and IMO, they did the best job at them at a price of a more complicated construction and some possible discomfort under arms.

With straight, sort of semi-action back gussets, Bates and Schott perfected it. Bates even took it a step further, knowing the gussets don't have to extend all the way toward the seam that extends across the shoulders because there's nothing going on up there.

Gussets on Aero jackets (among others & this isn't Aero's fault; They just based their design on a vintage example) stop where most pulling occurs which in turn completely negates the point. The fact that they're stitched on the outside of the seam, rather than buried inside, needlessly adds even more stress to the seams.

So in short, as @Canuck Panda stated; The lower the gusset extends, the better - Or the more it extends toward the armpit.

Blowout of the folded material is avoidable by correctly placed elastic bands. That's all there is to it & done one properly, there's no fear of it ever happening.

In any case, here's a... Don't know how to call it, but anyway, this is where most stress on the back of the jacket occurs, red obviously being where most stress happens & green representing least.

DSC05141.jpg
Dude!
You are a Dortor of Jacketology. This is awesome!
 

El Marro

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,115
Location
California
The reason I was collecting info on this is because one day a vintage jacket in good condition with close enough measurements will cross my path and there is a good chance it might be a little tight at times because I like to work out and fluctuate 10lbs up and down, so I was just trying to determine the worst kinds of action backs to avoid in a senecio like that.
If you are buying vintage you very well may get a jacket where the elastic on the action back has worn out. i had this problem on a G-1 I purchased and it was an easy repair for my tailor, as @Aloysius said.
 

handymike

I'll Lock Up
Messages
9,794
Location
SoCal
I’ve been having trouble fixing elastic gussets. Even when I put them in the right place something’s off and they either pucker or puff out. I think I need professional help.
 
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