Christmas without Christ? Huh?

[Marc Chevalier]

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It's an odd thing ... I was walking down my little L.A. neighborhood (one of the few here that people actually *walk* in) and passed by our local independent bookstore, a somewhat artsy joint. They had a window display of holiday greeting cards sold within. Lots of very abstract Christmas trees, wreaths, holly, snow, and Santas. Not one -- not even one -- showed the baby Jesus, Mary and Joseph, the star, the shepherds, etc. Thank goodness, one card had a cubist menorah; otherwise, you'd get no sense that December has any religious holidays at all.


This was strange for me. I spent the previous seven Decembers in Chile, where most holiday cards have pictures (mostly photos of Medieval and Renaissance paintings) showing the nativity. Granted, Chile is a culturally Catholic country; but isn't this the season of Christian and Jewish -- in other words, religious -- holidays, even in Los Angeles? Is there any real point to the 'celebrating' in December if you're going to ignore the source of its holidays? Has it come down to the exchanging of gifts, the partygoing, and the holiday bonuses?


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["Doc" Devereux]

I don't celebrate Christmas.

I'll wish a merry Christmas, a happy Hannukah, a cool Yule, a swinging Saturnalia and a super Solstice to the relevant persons when the time comes, but I don't belong to any of the related faiths and as such don't mark their dates. But then, I don't observe Yom Kippur, or Diwali, or Eid, or Easter, or Lammas either (although the company does throw a fantastic party for Samhain).

The celebration of mid-winter festivals dates back millenia. People have always marked the passing of the seasons whatever their feelings or definition of spiritual/divine oversight.

That said, if there's a party then I'm going to show up. Most of the seasonal events held at this time of year count as work-related for me anyway, and to miss them just because I'm not a Christian would be a snub to those inviting me that I'm not prepared to deliver.

So in three weeks I'll be wishing you all the compliments of the season, whatever you choose to call it.

 

[Elaina]

I think it's because we are not only culturally diverse, but religiously diverse as well that it's come to this.

I send cards out every year to Non-Christians in a "goodwill toward man" feeling. I know on my Christmas list I have a family that celebrates Kwanza, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists and a Wiccan or two. Sending anything but somethign generic seems to fall onto the insensitive part to me.

While I don't deny that I myself celebrate it in a Christinan sense, it's also about faith and understanding, peace and kindness, no matter what the origin of the season is to others.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

[QUOTE="Doc" Devereux]I don't celebrate Christmas ... [nonetheless] in three weeks I'll be wishing you all the compliments of the season, whatever you choose to call it.[/QUOTE]

I admire your reasonable and considerate way. What perplexes me is why my local bookstore would have two holiday displays in its windows (complete with snow and miniature Christmas trees), but not one image even hinting at the story of Jesus's birth, and barely one that hinted at Hannukah. I don't believe that the majority of its customers are non-Christian and non-Jewish, or that those who are would be "offended" by images relating to the nativity and the Hannukah story.


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[Lauren]

It's not religious anymore- not in mass produced and shiny America. The holiday has become about mass consumption of gifts, food, and even goodwill in the name of thinking of others. But I have to ask the purpose- giving over someone to their ideals of want- the latest they can't live without- is that not promoting some deeper desire than that of the soul? To me, the holiday is a spiritual one- and I know there are many people out there of many denominations and religions that still celebrate it as such- but are we, as a culture, based anymore on religion? Definately not. And in our quest to make a "holiday" accessable to everyone we have changed it into a feast of snowflakes, trees, ornaments, and presents with Santa as the patron saint of materialism.

Harsh, I know, but that's my opinion.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I think it's because we are not only culturally diverse, but religiously diverse as well that it's come to this ...I know on my Christmas list I have a family that celebrates Kwanza, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists and a Wiccan or two. Sending anything but something generic seems to fall onto the insensitive part to me.

That's understandable. But if you, as an individual, know your friends' and colleagues' religious (or non-religious) beliefs, you can send them a card that pertains to it. Send a generic card to those who don't observe religious holidays in December, or those whose beliefs you simply don't know. Send Kwanzaa cards to the families that celebrate it. Send Hannukah cards to those who observe it. And yes, send nativity cards to Christians. But don't try to find those nativity cards at my local bookstore; you won't be able to. :eusa_doh:


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["Doc" Devereux]

I admire your reasonable and considerate way. What perplexes me is why my local bookstore would have two holiday displays in its windows (complete with snow and miniature Christmas trees), but not one image even hinting at the story of Jesus's birth, and barely one that hinted at Hannukah. I don't believe that the majority of its customers are non-Christian and non-Jewish, or that those who are would be "offended" by images relating to the nativity and the Hannukah story.

Marketing.

But that's the glib answer.

I'd be inclined to guess that because there are a sufficient number of groups with differing interpretations of Jesus' birth, whatever the shop puts up will be protested against by one sect or another. The whole issue surrounding Christ on the cross vs Christ risen crucifixes comes to mind as an example.

 

[Pilgrim]

I suspect the bookstore is making an effort to keep their window as agenda-free as possible.

Which will, of course, result in some people thinking they have a very clear agenda!

Perhaps this is a variant of the old saying that when both sides complain about what you're doing, you must be just about in the middle.

I will admit that I'm not a particularly religiously observant person. For that reason, I don't tend to notice differences of Omission or Comission in such displays. However, when I do, I tend to simply chalk it up the the choices of the store owner.

After reflection, I'll offer this: if I were to create such a display, I'd probably end up with mostly secular objects and images; including images of Jesus or the nativity wouldn't necessarily be "top of mind" for me. I'd be most interested in the shapes and colors in the display and their ability to draw the eye. My wife would then probably nudge me to add a nativity scene, which would be cool with me.

On the other hand, if my store also sold Christmas beer, I'd probably put it in the display too.

I sure am a philistine, ain't I???

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Yup, I know the history of the celebration of Christmas. True, it has long had a material aspect to it. However -- and this is a very big 'however' -- the December holiday season has, until recently, been linked by Western mass culture to the story of Jesus's birth. Even as late as the 1960s, such mass-market TV fare as A Charlie Brown Christmas showed the 'Peanuts' kids singing a song about Christ's birth. And alongside those claymation TV specials about "Santa Claus", "Rudolph", and "Frosty", we also had "The Little Drummer Boy", which clearly showed him at the stable and the manger.


I'm optimistic about cultural diversity, and I believe that we can strike a balance. But it seems that somewhere along the line, the Christian and Jewish parts of the December holidays have become ignored by mass culture. I think we've moved from one extreme -- December as Christian, period -- to the other: December as Christian-less.


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[Mr. Lucky]

Actually, I think it is quite simple: They chose what they chose. If they are secular by choice, but still wish to partake of the spirit that comes with this time of year, and they wish they're business to reflect that, so be it. There is not a lack of religious themed holiday cards, et al. There are plenty of places to find them.

And, believe me, I am the King of Christmas (think Bill Murray AFTER his revelation in Scrooged) - embracing both religious and secular aspects of the holiday season. I LOVE this time of year! And that's my choice(albeit, my neighbor gets a tad annoyed at my lights going up the day after Thanksgiving simply because that puts him on the spot for his).

One of the most wonderful things about this country is not just the Freedom of Religion, but also the choice of Freedom FROM Religion. We can celebrate, or not celebrate, this time of year in any manner we choose. Ain't that great!

Merry Christmas!

 

[fortworthgal]

What Lauren said.

As a Christian, I can't help but center my holiday around Christ. It will probably offend some, but it bothers me to see that being taken away from Christmas for the sake of diversity. Personally, I don't see much point in celebrating "Christmas" without recognizing the "reason for the season." Historically it is a Christian holiday, but it has been turned into a more secular, material one so that nobody is left out and everyone can buy gifts for each other. That is just my humble (and harsh) opinion.

But it seems that somewhere along the line, the Christian and Jewish parts of the December holidays have become ignored by mass culture. I think we've moved from one extreme -- December as Christian, period -- to the other: December as Christian-less.
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I agree.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Lauren nailed it right on the head. The "Holiday Season" is a shopping festival now, nothing more -- and it has as much to do with religious observances as selling cars in February has to do with the birth of George Washington. And part of successful marketing of a shopping event is to appeal to the broadest possible range of shoppers -- thus the generic "Winter Shoppernalia" packaging of the season.

Marc is right that a lot of this has escalated since some of us were kids, back in the '60s and '70s. But marketing in general has become a lot more aggressive and a lot more competitive than it was back then, too -- instead of hundreds of local little department stores, we now have massive conglomerate chains of stores, which insist on a uniform marketing approach -- and by their own dominance of the marketplace they set the pace for everyone else. Hence, once again, "Winter Shoppernalia."

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Actually, I think it is quite simple: They chose what they chose. If they are secular by choice, but still wish to partake of the spirit that comes with this time of year, and they wish they're business to reflect that, so be it.

I think you're right about this in many, many ways, Mr. Lucky. And yet, I wonder why at least one nativity card couldn't have been included among all those other cards showing horns, holly, snowflakes, and the like. Why not have it at the table, so to speak?


I suspect that in my hip, irony-loving boho neighborhood, an image of Jesus in an alternative bookstore would be construed as kitsch.


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[Mr. Lucky]

I think you're right about this in many, many ways, Mr. Lucky. And yet, I wonder why at least one nativity card couldn't have been included among all those other cards showing horns, holly, snowflakes, and the like. Why not have it at the table, so to speak?


I suspect that in my hip, irony-loving boho neighborhood, an image of Jesus in an alternative bookstore would be construed as kitsch.


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Maybe it would be considered kitsch. In fact, probably. But one of the things going on in this country, and many others, is a rise in the power and force of Fundamentalism. And to that, there is a backlash. I know many people that I consider deeply, deeply spiritual. And a good portion of those ARE religious and devout and faithful to their dogmas. But many others have been turned off to the true nature of Faith by those that weild faith as a weapon, not a way. And I understand their position - no one wants to be controlled, not in a free and open society. In fact, this land was founded by those that took flight from religious persecution.

There's nothing wrong with God. I'm a huge fan of Jesus and Buddha. But I also am a devout practitioner of irony and my pink flamingos on my lawn are nothing if not kitsch.

It's not a slight, I don't believe. It's a choice. And, maybe, a statement. And, personally, I don't believe there's anything wrong with that.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

... it bothers me to see that being taken away from Christmas for the sake of diversity.

And that is the real, if not particularly chic, irony. Isn't the goal of diversity to include, rather than exclude? And we're not talking about including, say, Nazism. We're not talking about including noxious Renaissance popes or the Inquisition. We're talking about the story of the birth of someone who preached peace, forgiveness, and love. Whether or not we believe that Jesus was the son of God, why can't we accept that people take comfort and strength in Jesus's birth, life, teachings, and even death? Why exclude them from the table?


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[Paisley]

Maybe the store just didn't sell many of the religious cards in the past and decided to stop carrying them.

 

[olive bleu]

I know the history of the celebration of Christmas. And yes, I know that it has long had a material aspect to it. However -- and this is a very big 'however' -- the December holiday season has, until recently, been linked to the story of Jesus's birth. Even as late as the 1960s, such mass-market TV fare as A Charlie Brown Christmas showed the 'Peanuts' kids singing a song about Christ's birth. And alongside those claymation TV specials about "Santa Claus", "Rudolph", and "Frosty", we also had "The Little Drummer Boy", which clearly showed him at the stable and the manger.


I'm optimistic about cultural diversity, and I believe that we can strike a balance. But it seems that somewhere along the line, the Christian and Jewish parts of the December holidays have become ignored by mass culture. I think we've moved from one extreme -- December as Christian, period -- to the other: December as Christian-less.


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Marc, i hear you.I have 2 boys in elementary school and for the past 4 years, what used to be the "Christmas Concert" is now the "Winter COncert".I am all for diversity. My kids have friends that are Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. I CELEBRATE that. but,I believe that if you are going to make a point of being inclusive, well then BE inclusive for Pete's sake! This Winter Concert is not about anything anymore. It may feature songs about Hannukah, but it doesn't mention Yahweh, anymore than the "Christmas" songs celebrate the birth of Christ.What are we so afraid.I think it has become so unsexy and old-fashioned to RELLY, Really believe in any deity, that we are going out of our way to water down Religious holidays, so as to not offend.

I respect our differences.I am a Christian, and i certainly celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ.It is a beautiful meaningful occasion for many people for many different reasons.I realize that we have gone way beyond Christmas being ONLY a religious holiday, and i can deal with that. What distresses me is not the INCLUSION of other viewpoints, but the stark ABSCENCE of the Christian relevance, or the relevance of Hannukah to the Jewish.Have we really come to the place now where we really can't stomach anything deeper than Frosty the Snowman?

 

[Lauren]

And that is the real, if not particularly chic, irony. Isn't the goal of diversity to include, rather than exclude? And we're not talking about including, say, Nazism. We're not talking about including noxious Renaissance popes or the Inquisition. We're talking about the story of the birth of someone who preached peace, forgiveness, and love. Whether or not we believe that Jesus was the son of God, why can't we accept that people take comfort and strength in Jesus's birth, life, teachings, and even death? Why exclude them from the table?


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Well said, Marc :eusa_clap

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Maybe the store just didn't sell many of the religious cards in the past and decided to stop carrying them.

You could be right!

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[Mr. Lucky]

I respect our differences.I am a Christian, and i certainly celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ.It is a beautiful meaningful occasion for many people for many different reasons.I realize that we have gone way beyond Christmas being ONLY a religious holiday, and i can deal with that. What distresses me is not the INCLUSION of other viewpoints, but the stark ABSCENCE of the Christian relevance, or the relevance of Hannukah to the Jewish.Have we really come to the place now where we really can't stomach anything deeper than Frosty the Snowman?

Here I have to take exception - This is just not true! Drive by many a Synagoue and you will see the Menorah. Drive by many a church and you will see the Nativity Scene. Even here in Los Angeles! No one is pressing the govt. to go into churches, temples, places of worhip or even your home to tear down religious icons of any sort! There are no laws being passed to restrict religious freedoms in PRIVATE life. Hell, I'm more concerned about the positions govts. are taking in regards to smoking and trans fat! Times change and this country, because of what we are, MUST change with it.

This is change, not an assault. Hell, eighty years ago the Klan was in full force in the Northeast and Mid-west. Not because of people of color - because of people that were Catholic! And look at how that worked out for them!

There's always an over-reaction to change! And, personally, I believe that is what's happening now. On the other hand, look at the massive growth of Evengelicals (not fundamentalists, but TRUE evengeleicals) in this country!

No one is trying to restrict anyone else. It's just that a lot of people are taking a small issue and blowing it out of proportion to further THEIR personal agendas! Fear is a powerful weapon! To quote the movie Tombstone - "No one is saying you can't carry a gun. No one is saying you can't own a gun! We're only saying you can't carry a gun in town!" It's kind of the same thing.