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EAC

One of the Regulars
Messages
141
Totally agree with you. Its hard to make both points at once regarding value. I do think there is a point where some things just transcend provenance. In this case, as you say, a 40s Aviator is a 40s Aviator. The rarity and vintage perhaps make the lack of a label of little consequence. And this jacket being a larger size (or at least its not tiny!) also adds value to it. I'll be curious to see what it brings.

The cossack is sadly too small. I never see those in larger sizes. I wonder about that hide?? I'm probably overthinking it but it LOOKS like it could be Calfskin...... I'm not able to close up on the pics for some reason. But the photo with the label looks like Calf to me. Totally speculating here....

Hopefully the aviator will go to a good home.

Can't help with the leather on the cossack, unfortunately; not enough first-hand experience with these old jackets.
 

tmitchell59

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,091
Location
Illinois
1660074827658.png


I agree probably a Bock Bilt jacket. No doubt it is Capeskin, mid to late 40s. Yes something is odd about the cuffs. The black jacket is older and appears to have roll up cuffs. Capeskin was very popular throughout the 30s and 40s. Due to it's delicate hand most have significant damage. The shoulder on this one and lack of a label take it out of the money for me. I also believe I own the nicest vintage capeskin jacket in existence..

Block jacket were sold/marketed all over the country. They made a variety of outerwear in various materials.

I have a couple of Block jackets in my closet. They made the best looking Cossack jackets I have seen. I have yet to find one.

Late 30s Police jacket

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This style was very popular with several different variations. This one is goatskin

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Claybertrand

One Too Many
Messages
1,194
View attachment 443643

I agree probably a Bock Bilt jacket. No doubt it is Capeskin, mid to late 40s. Yes something is odd about the cuffs. The black jacket is older and appears to have roll up cuffs. Capeskin was very popular throughout the 30s and 40s. Due to it's delicate hand most have significant damage. The shoulder on this one and lack of a label take it out of the money for me. I also believe I own the nicest vintage capeskin jacket in existence..

Block jacket were sold/marketed all over the country. They made a variety of outerwear in various materials.

I have a couple of Block jackets in my closet. They made the best looking Cossack jackets I have seen. I have yet to find one.

Late 30s Police jacket

View attachment 443648 View attachment 443649

This style was very popular with several different variations. This one is goatskin

View attachment 443650 View attachment 443651
Thanks Terry!!! I knew you'd have some facts on these. Both of yours look awesome but that black one is PERFECTION!!! So much to like on that jacket!!! That back has a lot goin on and the combo on the front is understated and classy. I love that sleeve type on this particular jacket. It really works!! Perhaps THEE best CZ I have ever seen. That second one is unique and cool in its own right but I can't stop drooling over that black one. It has to be one of your best --- AND I KNOW HOW YOU LOVE BLACK JACKETS!!!!!!!!!!!! I hadn't seen this black beauty before. Thanks for posting it!!! That one goes in THE VAULT!!!
 

JMax

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,325

Claybertrand

One Too Many
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1,194


First off, DAMN.

Second---I pose this question to all the Sages in the Lounge---

Is there any connection with Albert Richard and Monarch??? These cuffs look a lot like a jacket I thought was perhaps a Monarch....... I have not had the time to post three bitchen jackets I have picked up in the last couple of months.

I will start this rabbit hole endeavor --- there is much more to this story that I will have to post somewhere more appropriate. I really want to share this jacket with the Lounge and get some perspective from you guys and I have been putting it off because I want to truly devote some time to this and I just haven't had much these last few months.

BIG Nutshell:

I bought a jacket I believe back in June --- from a Seller that had purchased the jacket 10-12 years ago at one of the Ralph Lauren Vintage Stores either in San Fran or in NYC. He had paid $900.00 plus tax was his recollection and he was told it was a "vintage motorcycle jacket".

So I have been tryin to id this jacket but its FULL of Red Herrings mainly caused by the following:

As some of you may know, apparently, Ralph Lauren has buyers who have acquired vintage pieces over the last 20 plus years --- they fix what needs fixing then they slap Boutique types of prices on the stuff. They curate collections of some really cool old stuff from clothing to household decor and they have maintained these collections in various brick and mortar stores in big cities. They more recently put items online as well but the site is not super easy to stumble upon. Here is an article on it :https://robbreport.com/style/fashion/ralph-lauren-vintage-1234594437/ They have some cool stuff and some vintage leather jackets etc. (some old Admiral Birds and some other cool things---all priced in 4 figures. I tried to find the link but I'm not seeing it. It can be found though because I check on it from time to time for fun just to gawk at the prices.

Anyway, this jacket I bought strongly resembles a 1930s Hercules. But there are tell tale signs that point other directions as well and I am wondering if the jacket was restored and sort of FRANKENSTEINED with zippers and labels perhaps not original to this jacket. Certainly one would believe that Ralph Lauren would have the Tailoring talent at their disposal to to stellar work and it appears that they have on this piece.

It has had the main zipper oddly replaced with a very lackluster and small sized YKK. It does have a chest pocket and that zipper is not a hoop and chain type pull (or diamond pull) that is often seen on a chest pocket----but rather it is a traditional, small, old Conmar zipper. It has the iconic Blue Woolish lining seen in the above Albert Richard, as well as in early Wolf and Hercules jackets but it could have been re-lined because this liner has a Center seam and its in such good condition it just almost seems it can't be original. It's cuffs and buttons resemble both the above Albert Richard, and the 30s Hercules (one of the reasons I am wondering about a connection to Monarch here----assuming that they made the early Herc jackets).

It also has a Front Quarter Horsehide label with the Patent Number and the "ADJUSTABLE INNER COLLAR" notation. I thought this was a Rough Wear Patent but it appears it was licensed to others over the years. The adjustable collar--as is often the case--- is no longer present. The jacket has no upper leather collar/throat latch button assembly like the 30s Hercules has. However, it DOES exhibit the beginnings of a flaw I have seen in the 30s Hercules jacket where the stitching at the ends of the hand warmer pockets becomes compromised and the leather in that area becomes stressed and can have small tears in it. I have seen repairs to these areas on other jackets as well as the damaged pockets un repaired.

The back is a dead ringer for the 30s Hercules with the Double Scallop Yoke and the Half Belt with adjusters at the waist/hip area. The hide is the best vintage Horsehide I have ever handled both in thickness and quality (about as thick and heavy as the Seattle Woolens cop jackets I have---perhaps just a bit less) The graining is unreal. It has French seams. The inner collar is lined with small cord corduroy while the outer collar when flipped up has black larger cord corduroy. There are no grommets at the main zipper base.

The black finish on the hide itself appears totally original with no re-dying or even noticeable conditioning. So it has some mild patina but in most places, its SOOOO mild that it looks like a conditioning might even eliminate some of the wear spots. The hide is perfect with no cracking, flaking or holes.

Lastly, this jacket fits like a glove. I think its perhaps a vintage 44 that fits a modern 42. I know the jacket is something truly vintage and cool but I haven't been able to nail down an ID. Elements of the 30s Hercules, the Albert Richard, Wolf etc. plus the whole RALPH LAUREN VINTAGE angle has had me confused on the ID. I know they overprice their inventory so the $900.00 paid 10-12 years ago is a hard price to gauge by current standards.

I took some basic pics (by basic I mean CRAPPY) because my description without pics would be incomplete and a total tease.

Please see the attached photos and I apologize in advance for putting this in this thread. If it should be deemed necessary to move it, so be it.

@tmitchell59 , @ton312 , @JMax , @Marc mndt, @Guppy , and any and everyone else in this here Lounge----any perspective, knowledge, opinions etc. would be welcome and very appreciated. I have had some really good luck the last couple of months finding some cool jackets even though I have not been actively looking. This one is honestly a grail type jacket for me. I am curious what you guys' impressions are on this one.
 

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Claybertrand

One Too Many
Messages
1,194
Sensational jacket. Have you tried researching the patent? May give insight as to maker.

Yeah its a cool one for sure. Excellent condition for what I would guess its its age.

Its hard to read the patent number but I thought of that too as at least a lead. I think I have done this in the past on this label when Terry was trying to track down the maker who used this label. As I recall, it did not return much info but I will certainly try again. Although it could have been taken from another jacket and just sewn on. The whole Ralph Lauren thing makes me wonder what was done to this jacket.
Wow!!!! I mean holy f’ing wow!!!! That’s really one helluva jacket to just casually drop in a thread!! I’ve not a clue. The back just SCREAMS Hercules. Man in that size….what an absolute gem.
I know bro........ I just wanted to get it out there for you guys to see. I am doing construction at my house and have very few places clean enough and well lit enough to get any pics of any quality so I'm lagging bad on being able to post about recent purchases. .

You want a kicker????? This jacket was purchased off CRAIGSLIST ............... yeah.......... ANNNNDDDD before I even got the jacket, I was researching Herc pics and thats when/how I found that other Herc HB I snagged outta that thriftstore in Chicago..............the jackets arrived a day apart and I thought I was dreaming. It was crazy man.
 

EAC

One of the Regulars
Messages
141
Thanks for sharing all of this, Claybertrand!

Though not a TFL sage, I'll give my 2 cents.

Dinerman wrote a history of Albert Richard here: https://vintagehaberdashers.com/2015/11/05/1930s-albert-richard-grizzly-jacket-2/

I report it:

''Fried-Ostermann was founded c.1902 as a glove manufacturer. They bought out their competitor, Price Gloves, and relocated production of that company’s products to their original factory, located at 617-645 Reed Street, Milwaukee, WI. By 1915, the company had gained a partner, and was known as the Fried, Ostermann, Meyer Co, but that looks to only have lasted until 1917. As the company grew, they relocated to 1645 S. 2nd Street, Milwaukee, WI. Fried-Ostermann diversified out of gloves and into outerwear in the late 1920s with the formation of a new division of the company, called Albert Richard. The leather jackets, mackinaws, overcoats and sportswear produced by Albert Richard would soon come to eclipse the glove-making side of the company. Pre-war advertising stressed health and sports, with endorsements from college football players. These ads also talk about bringing items of clothing which were previously thought of as workwear, like mackinaws and leather jackets, into the realm of ordinary streetwear, citing their comfort and durability. During WWII, the Albert Richard factory made A-2 (contract AC 23383), M-422A (contract 1406A), M444A and M445A flight jackets under the name of their parent company, Fried-Ostermann. They advertised leather jackets, overcoats and sportswear heavily during WWII, giving their jackets model names like the “Spitfire” and the “Meteor”. During the war, the company gave away wall-sized posters showing a range of american military airplanes. 850 workers were employed by Albert r in 1946, with plans to hire another 400. The company was one of the first to use fiberglass insulation in coats, a technology borrowed from b-29 bombers Sheepskin collared “storm coats” became a signature model after the war. President of Fried-Ostermann, Richard Fried, sold their Albert Richard Division to the Drybak corporation of Binghampton, NY in late 1952. Drybak, a maker of canvas hunting clothing was looking to diversify their line. In the deal, they got the licensing, branding, patterns, dealership network, but other than the Vice President and designer for Albert Richard, all of the employees and equipment stayed at the plant in Milwaukee. Fried-Osterman re-focused the attention of their plant on the production of gloves, and on producing leather jackets under house labels for mail order and department stores. Starting in 1953, under Drybak’s ownership, Albert Richard clothing was once again produced, this time under contract at a factory in New Jersey, which Drybak declined to name. The plan at that time was to have production moved to New York by 1954. Labels were changed in this period to read “Albert Richard by Drybak”. In 1955, Drybak acquired the Martin Mfg. Co. in Martin, TN. They closed their Binghamton operations in that same year and relocated their hunting clothing manufacturing and their Albert Richard division to the Tennessee plant to take advantage of the lower labor costs in the south.''

If I recall correctly, Monarch was in Milwaukee, and held an A-2 contract during WWII as well. I do not now much more, unfortunately.

To stay on topic, another AR on Etsy, a steerhide MC from the Drybak period (1953 onwards):

https://www.etsy.com/it/listing/691...f=sr_gallery-1-2&sts=1&organic_search_click=1

1660192847314.png

1660192873338.png

1660192942469.png

il_1588xN.1864594073_iujs.jpg


This is one of the jackets produced in New Jersey/New York/Tennessee.

It is interesting to compare it with a 40s MC jacket tmitchell59 had for sale here a while ago, which he had identified as a Monarch:

DSC09409.jpg
DSC09395.jpg


As you can see, there are many similarities: chest and cuffs zipper position and length, flap pocket, epaulettes and belt loops shape. Also, tmitchell59's jacket has the dark blue wool lining, same as the two half-belt posted above.

The Etsy AR might have been an early Drybak one, which still retained a lot of details (though not all, namely back and collar desig) typical of Milwaukee production. Does this mean that Monarch and Albert Richards jackets were made in the same factory? Or just in the same area? This I cannot tell. A 40s Albert Richards MC jacket could help in sorting this out.
 
Last edited:

EAC

One of the Regulars
Messages
141
Walter Dyer crosszip, been seeing this one on EBay. Says a size 18? Womens? The measurements look more in line with a Mens size. Either way, the leather looks very near end game level. IMO

View attachment 443955 View attachment 443956

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3850490331...FoTonrfQrC&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Usually woman's jacket have the zip on the opposite side of the chest with respect to men's. This seems women's.

I have seen this type of sizing on boys/girls jacket on vintage examples and catalogs, probably referring to the age. But you are right, measurements suggest a men-sized garment.
 

Claybertrand

One Too Many
Messages
1,194
Thanks for sharing all of this, Claybertrand!

Though not a TFL sage, I'll give my 2 cents.

Dinerman wrote a history of Albert Richard here: https://vintagehaberdashers.com/2015/11/05/1930s-albert-richard-grizzly-jacket-2/

I report it:

''Fried-Ostermann was founded c.1902 as a glove manufacturer. They bought out their competitor, Price Gloves, and relocated production of that company’s products to their original factory, located at 617-645 Reed Street, Milwaukee, WI. By 1915, the company had gained a partner, and was known as the Fried, Ostermann, Meyer Co, but that looks to only have lasted until 1917. As the company grew, they relocated to 1645 S. 2nd Street, Milwaukee, WI. Fried-Ostermann diversified out of gloves and into outerwear in the late 1920s with the formation of a new division of the company, called Albert Richard. The leather jackets, mackinaws, overcoats and sportswear produced by Albert Richard would soon come to eclipse the glove-making side of the company. Pre-war advertising stressed health and sports, with endorsements from college football players. These ads also talk about bringing items of clothing which were previously thought of as workwear, like mackinaws and leather jackets, into the realm of ordinary streetwear, citing their comfort and durability. During WWII, the Albert Richard factory made A-2 (contract AC 23383), M-422A (contract 1406A), M444A and M445A flight jackets under the name of their parent company, Fried-Ostermann. They advertised leather jackets, overcoats and sportswear heavily during WWII, giving their jackets model names like the “Spitfire” and the “Meteor”. During the war, the company gave away wall-sized posters showing a range of american military airplanes. 850 workers were employed by Albert r in 1946, with plans to hire another 400. The company was one of the first to use fiberglass insulation in coats, a technology borrowed from b-29 bombers Sheepskin collared “storm coats” became a signature model after the war. President of Fried-Ostermann, Richard Fried, sold their Albert Richard Division to the Drybak corporation of Binghampton, NY in late 1952. Drybak, a maker of canvas hunting clothing was looking to diversify their line. In the deal, they got the licensing, branding, patterns, dealership network, but other than the Vice President and designer for Albert Richard, all of the employees and equipment stayed at the plant in Milwaukee. Fried-Osterman re-focused the attention of their plant on the production of gloves, and on producing leather jackets under house labels for mail order and department stores. Starting in 1953, under Drybak’s ownership, Albert Richard clothing was once again produced, this time under contract at a factory in New Jersey, which Drybak declined to name. The plan at that time was to have production moved to New York by 1954. Labels were changed in this period to read “Albert Richard by Drybak”. In 1955, Drybak acquired the Martin Mfg. Co. in Martin, TN. They closed their Binghamton operations in that same year and relocated their hunting clothing manufacturing and their Albert Richard division to the Tennessee plant to take advantage of the lower labor costs in the south.''

If I recall correctly, Monarch was in Milwaukee, and held an A-2 contract during WWII as well. I do not now much more, unfortunately.

To stay on topic, another AR on Etsy, a steerhide MC from the Drybak period (1953 onwards):

https://www.etsy.com/it/listing/691...f=sr_gallery-1-2&sts=1&organic_search_click=1

View attachment 443932
View attachment 443933
View attachment 443934
View attachment 443935

This is one of the jackets produced in New Jersey/New York/Tennessee.

It is interesting to compare it with a 40s MC jacket tmitchell59 had for sale here a while ago, which he had identified as a Monarch:

View attachment 443936 View attachment 443937

As you can see, there are many similarities: chest and cuffs zipper position and length, flap pocket, epaulettes and belt loops shape. Also, tmitchell59's jacket has the dark blue wool lining, same as the two half-belt posted above.

The Etsy AR might have been an early Drybak one, which still retained a lot of details (though not all, namely back and collar desig) typical of Milwaukee production. Does this mean that Monarch and Albert Richards jackets were made in the same factory? Or just in the same area? This I cannot tell. A 40s Albert Richards MC jacket could help in sorting this out.
Really good info via Dinerman on Albert Richard!! Thanks for posting this.

This is interesting that both Monarch and AR & Fried-Ostermann were in the Milwaukee, WI area. I would have guessed there might be a connection there between the companies because of their proxemics (like we see in Massachusetts with Lawrence and Wolf) but when AR sold to Drybak and production was moved to New Jersey----and then down to Tennessee (home of Appalachian/Taylor) it seems a connection was unlikely. But prior to the move, perhaps there was some sort of connection with common employees, or a spin off of former employees or something---between Fried Ostermann and Monarch.

I don't have a known Monarch or a known Fried Ostermann or a known Albert Richard jacket for comparison. I do vaguely recall something @tmitchell59 was tracking down at one point relating to Fried Ostermann possibly making early D pocket Hercules jackets (I THINK---I'm hazy on this recollection) but this may have only been a theory.
 
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JMax

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,325
Really good info via Dinerman on Albert Richard!! Thanks for posting this.

This is interesting that both Monarch and AR & Fried-Ostermann were in the Milwaukee, WI area. I would have guessed there might be a connection there between the companies because of their proxemics (like we see in Massachusetts with Lawrence and Wolf) but when AR sold to Drybak and production was moved to New Jersey----and then down to Tennessee (home of Appalachian/Taylor) it seems a connection was unlikely. But prior to the move, perhaps there was some sort of connection with common employees, or a spin off of former employees or something---between Fried Ostermann and Monarch.

I don't have a known Monarch or a known Fried Ostermann or a known Albert Richard jacket for comparison. I do vaguely recall something @tmitchell59 was tracking down at one point relating to Fried Ostermann possibly making early D pocket Hercules jackets (I THINK---I'm hazy on this recollection) but this may have only been a theory.

Pretty sure it was decided that one of my D pocket Hercs was made by F-O. Gotta find the thread and posts. It’s an amazing jacket with an amazing HH. Good enough for me to try to sell my CSC made Herc D pocket. Shameless plug- stupid low price for stupid nice jacket. You’ve seen it right?!? Lol.
 

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