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Finds and Deals - Leather Jacket Edition

Bluechel

A-List Customer
Messages
330
Here's the pic...$205
 

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EAC

One of the Regulars
Messages
141
A find and a deal:

Polo Ralph Lauren 30s style aviator, tagged size M, 558$. I think dinerman used to wear a similar one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1946140657...pPQRzX3pMUriXFh6gwO6zC41JU8=|tkp:BFBMoPXB5dJg

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Swedish suede jacket, a slightly unusual variant of an actually timeless style (knit bottom/cuffs vintage versions of the 40s and 50s are basically identical to modern ones). I would have already bought it if it were my size.

Seller says 40s-50s era (I would agree), size 38 (tagged european 48), 70£.

https://www.ebay.it/itm/275390602287?hash=item401e8f1c2f:g:aNIAAOSwM9hi69es

s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600 (1).jpg
s-l1600 (2).jpg
 

torfjord

One Too Many
Messages
1,871
Location
Sweden
A find and a deal:

Polo Ralph Lauren 30s style aviator, tagged size M, 558$. I think dinerman used to wear a similar one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/194614065771?hash=item2d4fe6fa6b:g:KjcAAOSwD7BhuD92&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA0B/JAap9oxFUGSjLbvTSpIHdG1TSvITV5R/N3aA5Rg2zNP2eLk46ncFE1LUA9bphinwiNeOHpdWWiQBMjI/9noGHjCu7+IkxTjCrjlGJG9WRf1IbQhq/5f3IPNlcjle58svutkt3wcjdea177ttjHXRET/N51Zcw2VwXY+dmyr6QBwLWra/HnEzL9z8aWPEjiLU70mP8xF/qJlRL3slF7XwQFmk+YglSUOHJda+DMmrnRxAXoAp3v83rwKv/pPQRzX3pMUriXFh6gwO6zC41JU8=|tkp:BFBMoPXB5dJg

View attachment 444328 View attachment 444330 View attachment 444332


Swedish suede jacket, a slightly unusual variant of an actually timeless style (knit bottom/cuffs vintage versions of the 40s and 50s are basically identical to modern ones). I would have already bought it if it were my size.

Seller says 40s-50s era (I would agree), size 38 (tagged european 48), 70£.

https://www.ebay.it/itm/275390602287?hash=item401e8f1c2f:g:aNIAAOSwM9hi69es

View attachment 444337 View attachment 444338 View attachment 444339

That Ralph Lauren is sweet. @Imuricecreamman has one
 

tmitchell59

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,092
Location
Illinois
1660403794281.png


I've been reading all the information/questions on the Beauty and doing some research in my achieve.

My first impression, from the front, was Seattle Woolen, but that ended at the back.

I don't see anything non-original other than the obvious Y2K zipper.

I agree it is a Hercules with the "Fancy back" and no label. Probably sold by the maker with no label. The Arched back was considered Fancy and used to sell the jacket in the catalog. Nothing quite like this has shown up in the Sears catalog. Yes, this was a ground breaking jacket.

I would say this is a early 40s variant with the plain blue lining and a heavier hide

This low adjustment was phased out and was the fancy back and did not return after the war years.

1936 Sears catalog-Fancy Back

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1940 Sears catalog

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1942 Sears catalog


1660404799691.jpeg


Monarch is the accepted maker of the first years 1935 Sears Hercules as pictured. I assume they continued to make this model throughout it's catalog appearance. Monarch was only one maker for Sears during this time.

It is not always obvious who made what mostly guess work and putting pieces together. We assume some of the maker and can guess at others.

This label does have a researchable patent number, which I don't know how to search. I do have this on 2 jackets currently, One is a Rough wear Clothing Co. jacket, the other is unlabeled. I've seen this label on other jackets too with no other label. Could well have been licensed for use.

I assume Roughwear Clothing owned this patent. They were a major maker.

1660404969653.png


This is a very heavy unlabeled jacket with the inner collar label. Talk about big! This jacket is probably a size 48/46

1660405546315.jpeg
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Claybertrand

One Too Many
Messages
1,195
Roughwear Clothing with labeling

View attachment 444424 View attachment 444425
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Early Sears Hercules with inner collar still present.

View attachment 444429 View attachment 444430 View attachment 444431

The low adjustment belts have been removed. The chin strap has been moved to close the hem!

View attachment 444432
@tmitchell59 I am so glad to hear from you on this Terry. I have been trying to research this jacket and have rewatched all your Sears jacket and Herc videos (even the Oldies!!) in the last month or so even pausing them to gaze into the background at your jackets. I know that you had one of these 30s Hercules jackets in your collection but I knew it was a little rough and not your size so you keep it on a fit mannequin. It was hard for me to gauge that jacket to compare it. And there aren't many available photos of these 30s Hercs. Most searches end up showing Aero Original Hercules jackets --- not vintage ones.

I NEARLY scored one of these on Etsy a couple of years ago. But literally as I was messaging the Seller about the length measurement---someone bought it. I have posted a pic of that jacket here in the Lounge before but I cannot find it and the Seller is now on hiatus so her store images are unavailable. But the jacket I saw had the Hercules label. It also had arrow/triangle stitched reinforcements where the edges of the handwarmer pockets had failed. It was a pretty crude repair and it changed the nature of the jacket some----but it did seem to fix the issue.

I have tried doing patent searches before on this collar label and found nothing. But today, being a bit more obsessed--- I did several searches. Because a couple of numbers were illegible, I had to resort to trying every number in that place until it hit on something.

SOOOOO-----I now believe I have found this correct patent!!

I know it was filed in 1934 but it could well have also been filed years earlier as I am also seeing records dating to 1929 as well. However, the clearest indication is that the patent number 1,993,705 was filed by an Isaac Kirschenbaum for a coat that details among other things, an adjustable collar. On the face of the filing, it isn't entirely clear that the patent is for the collar itself although it is illustrated in decent enough detail. There just isn't a lot of written description. In another search, I found this patent number having a descriptive classification as falling into the category of "CLOTH COLLARS". It is a Single page filing and very rudimentary and lacking as to the descriptions of the specifics of the design. I am attaching this patent filing with this post. There are clear images of the collar design here.

Patent registration in the U.S. has evolved greatly over the years as inventions and innovations of those inventions have gotten more and more prevalent and complex. Basically, the more stuff people come up with, the more there is a need to differentiate new products and designs from previous designs for purposes of patenting the new design. The first guy who invents something doesn't have to explain what is different and unique about his design compared to others because there are no others. But as these spaces get more and more crowded with innovation, the necessary filing documentation gets exponentially more complex. So in my experience, the older the patent, the more basic the description on the filing and this one is a perfect example of this.

That said, I do believe that this is the correct patent we are looking for on the Adjustable collar. Now I am going to chase ol' Isaac Kirschenbaum down another rabbit hole to see if I can link him to any one maker. As it stands, it APPEARS that the invention was not registered to a company but rather to the individual inventor who could well have licensed its use extensively.

Now I personally think that the Adjustable Collar was something that maybe caught on for a few years but it really never didn't stick. This is based on seeing these labels in only a certain era of garment and seeing many cases where the collar itself is not present. It all suggests to me that this innovation was relatively short lived. IF this is true---we should be able to use these labels to more narrowly id the production years of these jackets. I don't know the answer----maybe we can narrow the ID to a stretch between 1934 and 1940 or so. Something like that.



1660422583526.png

This should be archived and the correct patent number is listed in the upper right corner. Most of these labels are not easy to read the patent number so at least---this should no longer be a mystery.

Now let's see about our Mr. Kirschenbaum...........................
 
Last edited:

tmitchell59

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,092
Location
Illinois
@tmitchell59 I am so glad to hear from you on this Terry. I have been trying to research this jacket and have rewatched all your Sears jacket and Herc videos (even the Oldies!!) in the last month or so even pausing them to gaze into the background at your jackets. I know that you had one of these 30s Hercules jackets in your collection but I knew it was a little rough and not your size so you keep it on a fit mannequin. It was hard for me to gauge that jacket to compare it. And there aren't many available photos of these 30s Hercs. Most searches end up showing Aero Original Hercules jackets --- not vintage ones.

I NEARLY scored one of these on Etsy a couple of years ago. But literally as I was messaging the Seller about the length measurement---someone bought it. I have posted a pic of that jacket here in the Lounge before but I cannot find it and the Seller is now on hiatus so her store images are unavailable. But the jacket I saw had the Hercules label. It also had arrow/triangle stitched reinforcements where the edges of the handwarmer pockets had failed. It was a pretty crude repair and it changed the nature of the jacket some----but it did seem to fix the issue.

I have tried doing patent searches before on this collar label and found nothing. But today, being a bit more obsessed--- I did several searches. Because a couple of numbers were illegible, I had to resort to trying every number in that place until it hit on something.

SOOOOO-----I now believe I have found this correct patent!!

I know it was filed in 1934 but it could well have also been filed years earlier as I am also seeing records dating to 1929 as well. However, the clearest indication is that the patent number 1,993,705 was filed by an Isaac Kirschenbaum for a coat that details among other things, an adjustable collar. On the face of the filing, it isn't entirely clear that the patent is for the collar itself although it is illustrated in decent enough detail. There just isn't a lot of written description. In another search, I found this patent number having a descriptive classification as falling into the category of "CLOTH COLLARS". It is a Single page filing and very rudimentary and lacking as to the descriptions of the specifics of the design. I am attaching this patent filing with this post. There are clear images of the collar design here.

Patent registration in the U.S. has evolved greatly over the years as inventions and innovations of those inventions have gotten more and more prevalent and complex. Basically, the more stuff people come up with, the more there is a need to differentiate new products and designs from previous designs for purposes of patenting the new design. The first guy who invents something doesn't have to explain what is different and unique about his design compared to others because there are no others. But as these spaces get more and more crowded with innovation, the necessary filing documentation gets exponentially more complex. So in my experience, the older the patent, the more basic the description on the filing and this one is a perfect example of this.

That said, I do believe that this is the correct patent we are looking for on the Adjustable collar. Now I am going to chase ol' Isaac Kirschenbaum down another rabbit hole to see if I can link him to any one maker. As it stands, it APPEARS that the invention was not registered to a company but rather to the individual inventor who could well have licensed its use extensively.

Now I personally think that the Adjustable Collar was something that maybe caught on for a few years but it really never didn't stick. This is based on seeing these labels in only a certain era of garment and seeing many cases where the collar itself is not present. It all suggests to me that this innovation was relatively short lived. IF this is true---we should be able to use these labels to more narrowly id the production years of these jackets. I don't know the answer----maybe we can narrow the ID to a stretch between 1934 and 1940 or so. Something like that.



View attachment 444489
This should be archived and the correct patent number is listed in the upper right corner. Most of these labels are not easy to read the patent number so at least---this should no longer be a mystery.

Now let's see about our Mr. Kirschenbaum...........................

Excellent work! It was Roughwear Clothing Co.

https://blog.eastmanleather.com/view-post/the-rough-wear-clothing-company

In March 1930 Hyman Kirschenbaum, founder and president, died, and the business was willed to his daughter Eleanor and his son Isaac Kirschenbaum took over as president.

In 1931 the company was reorganised, Isaac Kirschenbaum was president and treasurer; H. Sander, vice


https://patents.google.com/patent/US1993705A/en?inventor=Kirschenbaum+Isaac
 
Last edited:

Claybertrand

One Too Many
Messages
1,195
Excellent work! It was Roughwear Clothing Co.

https://blog.eastmanleather.com/view-post/the-rough-wear-clothing-company

In March 1930 Hyman Kirschenbaum, founder and president, died, and the business was willed to his daughter Eleanor and his son Isaac Kirschenbaum took over as president.

In 1931 the company was reorganised, Isaac Kirschenbaum was president and treasurer; H. Sander, vice


https://patents.google.com/patent/US1993705A/en?inventor=Kirschenbaum+Isaac
Nice work @tmitchell59 !!!!!!!!!!----NOW we are gettin somewhere!!!!!!! This is some definitive evidence!!!

And it all ties together date wise to the patent itself when you see the Application Date of March 21, 1934 and the eventual Granting of the Patent dated March 5, 1935 both of which are on the face of the patent itself as well as in the Patent Archives.

Side Question:

SO is this also definitive proof that Roughwear made the Admiral Bird jackets or is that a bridge to far considering what we know???? Clearly--- they made jackets for Byrd's expedition according to the Eastman blog on Rough Wear. But I gotta think the branding "Admiral Byrd" was not on THOSE jackets. Rather, this branding likely came later perhaps after Byrd's successful exploration made his name more marketable. Just a guess on that.

But I am still having problems with the understanding of the Early Hercules Makers. And this could be --- and likely is as simply explained as that there were MULTIPLE makers who made the Hercules jackets. But the earliest ones had to have been made by fewer makers than the later ones were. We need to reconcile how Monarch fits into this puzzle.

We have breadcrumbs that lead to Monarch and Fried Ostermann in Wisconsin and the belief that early Hercules were made by these makers. So how did the 30s Hercules with the fancy back come about and by who's hand??? Roughwear was not in the region being more of a TriState situated business (NY,NY then to Jersey then to Pennsylvania) so there is not a clear connection to the Wisconsin based makers do to locale. It seems from the locations of the businesses that any sort of collaboration did not exist.

Could be so simple as that Kirschenbaum invented the collar and licensed it to Monarch and/or Fried Ostermann and that is the only connection here.

So who made the 30s Hercules??? One would think Monarch, FO, or RoughWear. We are getting there!!!!!!!!

If we can nail down that my jacket is a Hercules, I'll jump this discussion to your Sears Jackets thread or the Threads of the Past thread. This information should be more logically situated in the Lounge for future reference and just good organization.
 

Claybertrand

One Too Many
Messages
1,195
That’s because Vanson made it! These are collabs with Vanson. Junya just trimmed and cut some design elements.
Oh Hot damn!!!! Ok..... I'm a little slow sometimes..... lol.... Looks sorta like a cross between a Vanson and a Vanek (out of Vienna)....... Cool one. Vanson pulls off the classy two piece back or center seam as good as anyone I have seen.
 

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