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Damon141

Practically Family
Messages
617
1930’s Woolrich looks like it’s in great condition for that age. $129
https://www.ebay.com/itm/185514131231?hash=item2b3180ff1f:g:a8kAAOSwlEZi36Lw
D37722BA-E6BB-4761-AE65-2C932C0A9F65.jpeg
 

tmitchell59

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,094
Location
Illinois
SO is this also definitive proof that Roughwear made the Admiral Bird jackets or is that a bridge to far considering what we know????

Yes, I believe that is proof enough. I thought Roughwear was patent holder based on my RW jacket having the patent applied for tag. Turns out it is RW. I think the Admiral Byrd connection is made with this information. Making leather jackets with a reference to a famous expedition/person makes marketing sense to me.

The Admiral Byrd label was often paired with the Montgomery Ward label showing connection with RW Clothing as a producer for MW jackets.

But I am still having problems with the understanding of the Early Hercules Makers. And this could be --- and likely is as simply explained as that there were MULTIPLE makers who made the Hercules jackets. But the earliest ones had to have been made by fewer makers than the later ones were. We need to reconcile how Monarch fits into this puzzl

Monarch and Fried/Osterman are two different Companies in the same city. They both produced jackets for Sears. I see 50s jackets that I feel were made by F/O but that is my speculation.

The connection between Monarch and the Iconic Sears jacket was made by others than me. Why? Who?

The use of the "inner collar" on the Sears Hercules and now evidence this was a RoughWear clothing patent is a wrench in the works for me.

Why license a patent to your competitors? Money?

Roughwear Clothing was a major concern, as much as Monarch and others, they too had the capacity to make jackets for Sears and others. I believe they made the Admiral Byrd for Wards did they make the iconic Sears Hercules?
 

Claybertrand

One Too Many
Messages
1,195
Yes, I believe that is proof enough. I thought Roughwear was patent holder based on my RW jacket having the patent applied for tag. Turns out it is RW. I think the Admiral Byrd connection is made with this information. Making leather jackets with a reference to a famous expedition/person makes marketing sense to me.

The Admiral Byrd label was often paired with the Montgomery Ward label showing connection with RW Clothing as a producer for MW jackets.



Monarch and Fried/Osterman are two different Companies in the same city. They both produced jackets for Sears. I see 50s jackets that I feel were made by F/O but that is my speculation.

The connection between Monarch and the Iconic Sears jacket was made by others than me. Why? Who?

The use of the "inner collar" on the Sears Hercules and now evidence this was a RoughWear clothing patent is a wrench in the works for me.

Why license a patent to your competitors? Money?

Roughwear Clothing was a major concern, as much as Monarch and others, they too had the capacity to make jackets for Sears and others. I believe they made the Admiral Byrd for Wards did they make the iconic Sears Hercules?

A lot of good reasoning here. We obviously are connecting dots based on scant historical information but I think you are right that we can sort of take as a given that RoughWear was the likely maker of the Admiral Byrd line of jackets after they made the original jackets for his expedition. I agree that the name would be marketable especially given the stories of Byrd's expedition in the press at the time.

I think perhaps the whole "MONARCH MADE THE 30s Hercules" may just be a flawed theory. I don't know where it came from but I feel like the evidence does not support this. This WAS sort of the wrench in the works for me. But now I think that the evidence leans a lot stronger toward RoughWear making the 30s Hercules jackets than Monarch or Fried-Ostermann. That is not to say the Wisconsin makers didn't make other Sears jackets---like perhaps the early D Pockets. It just seems that the 30s Hercules aligns more with RoughWear based on the liner and the label. I am trying to look for various Admiral Byrd jackets now to compare with the one I have. I know that the Ralph Lauren Vintage Store online had a couple of Byrds the last time I looked there. I wonder if those might be the next place to look for confirmation. Perhaps some design elements of the Byrd jackets can be recognized as also being present in the 30s Hercules??

Now the whole licensing the use of the adjustable collar thing is interesting and puzzling. It is odd that they would license their invention to a competitor. Maybe there was some relationship between the companies that we cannot see from the history? Possibly familial?? The invention itself doesn't seem that special to me. It doesn't seem necessary or better than wearing a scarf or something. It doesn't seem like such an advancement that competitors would clamor for it or be unable to create their own alternative design. And how much money could be made from such a licensing arrangement anyway??

I do think it was a short lived invention. The Patent filing dates show a likely expiration date for the patent was in 1952 but I really don't think it lasted nearly that long. I think if it DID extend into the 50s, we would see more of those labels than we do. Perhaps the patent went that long but they just stopped putting them in garments at a much earlier date.
 
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Claybertrand

One Too Many
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1,195
Having mentioned it a few times here---THIS is the link for the Ralph Lauren Vintage Store online. Information is sketchy on these stores. Apparently, there are 12 Flagship stores and these stores carry vintage items. The confusion in finding this is all search queries with VINTAGE RALPH LAUREN tend to return places where you can buy VINTAGE RALPH LAUREN BRANDED APPAREL.

This is NOT what I am referring to. They have separately curated actual vintage items that are NOT Ralph Lauren branded items. I will admit its pretty "HIPSTERED OUT" when you see the selections and the prices etc. along with the array of items. they have. So they supposedly launched this initiative but the online portion somehow only relates to the SOHO store in NYC. Which is odd-----why not have all of your vintage stuff from all the stores uploaded to the online platform???? It seems this is a sideshow for them and they aren't creating a whole platform just to sell some random vintage stuff they are accumulating. It is just part of the brand's style and public persona perhaps.

At any rate, the link is weird because it basically leads you into all of the modern clothing from RL if you don't stay only on the vintage page. If you try to search MENS clothing for example, it throws you over to a regular RL website for mens clothes. Also, they don't even post that many vintage items online---and some things you click on will be sold but still on the page. Currently they don't have that many leather jackets---I think like 3-4 including an old Indian D pocket an old Levis Trucker, a hyper studded fidelity D pocket and some others. few weeks ago, they still had an old Schott and 2 old Admiral Byrds. All prices for these jackets are 4 digits.......

I have a feeling this is more of a thing where most of the stuff never makes it online and is only found at the various stores so you gotta go in person to see what each store might have from time to time. This link will give an idea though of what's available:

https://www.ralphlauren.com/vintage...wNw&SiteId=TnL5HPStwNw-Vqo1Yx9H6QiqH.8..k83hA
 
Messages
15,394
Having mentioned it a few times here---THIS is the link for the Ralph Lauren Vintage Store online. Information is sketchy on these stores. Apparently, there are 12 Flagship stores and these stores carry vintage items. The confusion in finding this is all search queries with VINTAGE RALPH LAUREN tend to return places where you can buy VINTAGE RALPH LAUREN BRANDED APPAREL.

This is NOT what I am referring to. They have separately curated actual vintage items that are NOT Ralph Lauren branded items. I will admit its pretty "HIPSTERED OUT" when you see the selections and the prices etc. along with the array of items. they have. So they supposedly launched this initiative but the online portion somehow only relates to the SOHO store in NYC. Which is odd-----why not have all of your vintage stuff from all the stores uploaded to the online platform???? It seems this is a sideshow for them and they aren't creating a whole platform just to sell some random vintage stuff they are accumulating. It is just part of the brand's style and public persona perhaps.

At any rate, the link is weird because it basically leads you into all of the modern clothing from RL if you don't stay only on the vintage page. If you try to search MENS clothing for example, it throws you over to a regular RL website for mens clothes. Also, they don't even post that many vintage items online---and some things you click on will be sold but still on the page. Currently they don't have that many leather jackets---I think like 3-4 including an old Indian D pocket an old Levis Trucker, a hyper studded fidelity D pocket and some others. few weeks ago, they still had an old Schott and 2 old Admiral Byrds. All prices for these jackets are 4 digits.......

I have a feeling this is more of a thing where most of the stuff never makes it online and is only found at the various stores so you gotta go in person to see what each store might have from time to time. This link will give an idea though of what's available:

https://www.ralphlauren.com/vintage...wNw&SiteId=TnL5HPStwNw-Vqo1Yx9H6QiqH.8..k83hA

Old jackets are available only in the store due to an infinite number of reasons. Of course they're not selling them online as this would be a disaster. RRL is a serious company, they can't be bothered selling crusty, old, smelly jackets online for thousands of dollars, without being able to guarantee one single thing about them.

To be honest, I'm surprised they're even selling them at all.
 

EAC

One of the Regulars
Messages
141
Old jackets are available only in the store due to an infinite number of reasons. Of course they're not selling them online as this would be a disaster. RRL is a serious company, they can't be bothered selling crusty, old, smelly jackets online for thousands of dollars, without being able to guarantee one single thing about them.

To be honest, I'm surprised they're even selling them at all.

As far as I have understood, they sell online and ship internationally. The order is placed either by phone call or e-mail.

I have never been to the RRL store, nor I have purchased vintage from them, but I have heard (and I agree now after looking at the online offer, which I am pretty sure is only a part of what's available in store) that their collection is extremely curated: rare/iconic pieces in wearable sizes and in good vintage condition (so no bad smells, tears/holes). I wouldn't be surprised if they cleaned and repaired everything before putting it up for sale.

Of course the markup is huge: apart from the price for picking/paying the pickers, cleaning and repairing, add the fact that's RL-certified vintage sold in an evocative store and you have the final 4-figures.

Who are they selling this to, you ask? Apart from the wealthy Japanese enthusiast, to people like him:

1660553336118.png


https://www.permanentstyle.com/2021/12/how-i-wear-a-black-leather-jacket.html

He bought the pictured jacket in store, and didn't even pay that much (by vintage RL standards, of course).

There's a significant number of wealthy people out there which are interested in menswear, but are more into the tailoring aspect of it. With vintage being 'in', and them wanting some, having little to no time (or willingness) to hunt, they resort to places like the RRL store, which does all the work for them and asks only money, something they have plenty of (many of them can afford bespoke tailoring). Nothing wrong with that, of course.
 
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Messages
15,394
As far as I have understood, they sell online and ship internationally. The order is placed either by phone call or e-mail.

I have never been to the RRL store, nor I have purchased vintage from them, but I have heard (and I agree now after looking at the online offer, which I am pretty sure is only a part of what's available in store) that their collection is extremely curated: rare/iconic pieces in wearable sizes and in good vintage condition (so no bad smells, tears/holes). I wouldn't be surprised if they cleaned and repaired everything before putting it up for sale.

Of course the markup is huge: apart from the price for picking/paying the pickers, cleaning and repairing, add the fact that's RL-certified vintage sold in an evocative store and you have the final 4-figures.

Who are they selling this to, you ask? Apart from the wealthy Japanese enthusiast, to people like him:

View attachment 444698

https://www.permanentstyle.com/2021/12/how-i-wear-a-black-leather-jacket.html

He bought the pictured jacket in store, and didn't even pay that much (by vintage RL standards, of course).

There's a significant number of wealthy people out there which are interested in menswear, but are more into the tailoring aspect of it. With vintage being 'in', and them wanting some, having little to no time (or willingness) to hunt, they resort to places like the RRL store, which does all the work for them and asks only money, something they have plenty of (many of them can afford bespoke tailoring). Nothing wrong with that, of course.

Yep, their collection is curated and naturally, the mark-up is up to 3x what the piece normally would cost on eBay but I've no issues with that. I'm just surprised to hear they bother selling these jackets online. . . It's only rich people of course who will actually purchase these from a RRL store but most of 'em don't know jack all about vintage clothes and just wanna buy some stuff they like on the pics to upgrade their style - This isn't spoken in a patronizing manner; If I was making 7 figures (instead of 4 lol) I'd also just grab whatever car is currently considered to be the best deal, as I don't know anything about motorized vehicles of any kind. But in any case, I've read quite a few threads elsewhere on how shocked these people were when they realized that paying money for a 60 years old leather jacket means exactly that.

This guy is funny, though. So much talk about an old, crusty-ass leather jacket that don't even fit him that well. But there's a section on fountain pens on that site. The heck for does anyone need a fountain pen anymore?
 

Marc mndt

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,104
With vintage being 'in', and them wanting some, having little to no time (or willingness) to hunt, they resort to places like the RRL store, which does all the work for them and asks only money, something they have plenty of (many of them can afford bespoke tailoring). Nothing wrong with that, of course.

Ralph lauren uses props in their stores: non-Ralph Lauren items that are used to create a specific in-store experience. Think of vintage tennis rackets, polo helmets, hat boxes, cowboy boots etc. Or even vintage Goyard or LV trunks.

Here's a 30s LV trunk used as a table in their now closed Amsterdam store.
CD2F626C-AD90-4C78-A242-E8E8A3CF8476.jpeg


When people walk into a Ralph store and they see something cool, they want to buy it. Doesn't matter whether it's vintage or new or collectible. So why not put a price tag on it.

I don't think it's intended a business model though, too much work and it's not scalable. It's probably more profitable for them to sell a 4k Purple label jacket. Some examples of vintage items from their Paris store.

A893CE47-E723-413F-B699-C10765C25F8B.jpeg
04B0016F-F4D7-4A80-8790-28066186A322.jpeg
94DC4B33-6041-4CE7-B3F5-AD93F15C986B.jpeg
3F26FF30-0797-4373-B956-366E81248A63.jpeg
4ECD0586-D57D-4328-8EAB-0CCCC743D614.jpeg
B63DDB97-2D7B-4D1C-BFD1-29472B9AF36B.jpeg
209F9CB9-6964-4A9F-ADDA-EF0F252E7A6F.jpeg
FB08F64F-2359-4A69-89CE-94D87240F7DB.jpeg
ABFF741B-2A65-4282-A724-3B92814F8255.jpeg
 

EAC

One of the Regulars
Messages
141
Yep, their collection is curated and naturally, the mark-up is up to 3x what the piece normally would cost on eBay but I've no issues with that. I'm just surprised to hear they bother selling these jackets online. . . It's only rich people of course who will actually purchase these from a RRL store but most of 'em don't know jack all about vintage clothes and just wanna buy some stuff they like on the pics to upgrade their style - This isn't spoken in a patronizing manner; If I was making 7 figures (instead of 4 lol) I'd also just grab whatever car is currently considered to be the best deal, as I don't know anything about motorized vehicles of any kind. But in any case, I've read quite a few threads elsewhere on how shocked these people were when they realized that paying money for a 60 years old leather jacket means exactly that.

This guy is funny, though. So much talk about an old, crusty-ass leather jacket that don't even fit him that well. But there's a section on fountain pens on that site. The heck for does anyone need a fountain pen anymore?

Exactly. Regarding that blog, it's simply directed at a different type of audience. It makes for an interesting read, if you are into that kind of stuff.

Ralph lauren uses props in their stores: non-Ralph Lauren items that are used to create a specific in-store experience. Think of vintage tennis rackets, polo helmets, hat boxes, cowboy boots etc. Or even vintage Goyard or LV trunks.

Here's a 30s LV trunk used as a table in their now closed Amsterdam store.
View attachment 444700

When people walk into a Ralph store and they see something cool, they want to buy it. Doesn't matter whether it's vintage or new or collectible. So why not put a price tag on it.

I don't think it's intended a business model though, too much work and it's not scalable. It's probably more profitable for them to sell a 4k Purple label jacket. Some examples of vintage items from their Paris store.

View attachment 444703 View attachment 444702 View attachment 444704 View attachment 444705 View attachment 444706 View attachment 444707 View attachment 444709 View attachment 444710 View attachment 444708

Super nice, thanks for sharing the pics! As you said, everything contributes to the evocative atmosphere, and the shopping experience is included in those prices as well. I am surprised they let you take those photos, though.

You are right that's not scalable, but as long as they apply it to just a few stores, it works. I think high fashion stores in key locations invest a lot in interior design anyway, so as long as RL sells those pieces (and they do) it should not cost them much more than a Saint-Laurent or Brunello Cucinelli.

As a side note, vintage RL labeled peices are sometimes really nice:

https://www.ebay.it/itm/133654322829?_trkparms=amclksrc=ITM&aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=0a68899509e84c96bc3245400079b417&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=133654322829&itm=133654322829&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&brand=Lauren+Ralph+Lauren&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:d15f74a7-1c87-11ed-9e50-56c0a316f8f7|parentrq:a11eaa211820a9f736bc69c0fff824e4|iid:1

Size M at 100 euros, a few small stains and missing a button, but plenty of bells & whistles.

1660560599396.png
 
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mendelboaz

One Too Many
Messages
1,215
Location
The Netherlands
Ralph lauren uses props in their stores: non-Ralph Lauren items that are used to create a specific in-store experience. Think of vintage tennis rackets, polo helmets, hat boxes, cowboy boots etc. Or even vintage Goyard or LV trunks.

Here's a 30s LV trunk used as a table in their now closed Amsterdam store.
View attachment 444700

When people walk into a Ralph store and they see something cool, they want to buy it. Doesn't matter whether it's vintage or new or collectible. So why not put a price tag on it.

I don't think it's intended a business model though, too much work and it's not scalable. It's probably more profitable for them to sell a 4k Purple label jacket. Some examples of vintage items from their Paris store.

View attachment 444703 View attachment 444702 View attachment 444704 View attachment 444705 View attachment 444706 View attachment 444707 View attachment 444709 View attachment 444710 View attachment 444708

3.5K euros for a J-100? These folks are insane.
 

ojaw

One of the Regulars
Messages
273
Location
Winnipeg
This guy is funny, though. So much talk about an old, crusty-ass leather jacket that don't even fit him that well. But there's a section on fountain pens on that site. The heck for does anyone need a fountain pen anymore?
I like mine, less waste is one reason to use ‘em. Never take it anywhere though, don’t quite trust the mechanism to not spring a leak in transport.
A3F06B5A-9254-4336-AA71-1D40CB19E337.jpeg
 

Will Zach

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,898
Location
Northeast USA
Yep, their collection is curated and naturally, the mark-up is up to 3x what the piece normally would cost on eBay but I've no issues with that. I'm just surprised to hear they bother selling these jackets online. . . It's only rich people of course who will actually purchase these from a RRL store but most of 'em don't know jack all about vintage clothes and just wanna buy some stuff they like on the pics to upgrade their style - This isn't spoken in a patronizing manner; If I was making 7 figures (instead of 4 lol) I'd also just grab whatever car is currently considered to be the best deal, as I don't know anything about motorized vehicles of any kind. But in any case, I've read quite a few threads elsewhere on how shocked these people were when they realized that paying money for a 60 years old leather jacket means exactly that.

This guy is funny, though. So much talk about an old, crusty-ass leather jacket that don't even fit him that well. But there's a section on fountain pens on that site. The heck for does anyone need a fountain pen anymore?
Yep, 60% guys on TFL have better fitting jackets than this dude, and better style. At least he's not checking his cuffs though, I'll give him that.
 

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