German & Austrian Hutmachers

Discussion in 'Hats' started by mayserwegener, Sep 1, 2008.

  1. Steve1857

    Steve1857 I'll Lock Up

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    Thanks Stefan. I am so pleased with this one.

    You've picked up some nice looking hats yourself this week. Hope the one from the UK arrives some time soon.

     
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  2. steur

    steur

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    Thanks, Steve. There needs to be some serious star alignment for that to happen I'm afraid...
     
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  3. mayserwegener

    mayserwegener

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    Stefan, Thanks! Yes same here. It could have been applied by Mayser or the store that sold it.
     
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  4. mayserwegener

    mayserwegener

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    Stefan, Thanks! Yes same here. It could have been applied by Mayser or the store that sold it
    Stefan, Thanks! You topped me two great looking Maysers! I believe I have a hat on they way that was shipped similarly. :)
     
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  5. mayserwegener

    mayserwegener

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    Stefan, Can you make out the word (diagonal) on the left side of the label? It's very faint.

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  6. steur

    steur

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    I'll see if I can get a better look.
     
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  7. Steve1857

    Steve1857 I'll Lock Up

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    Sorry to hear that :-(

     
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  8. steur

    steur

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    My phone decided to die yesterday, so I had to try again today. Here's as good as I can get it with my phone. Can't tell what word it is though.
    lab1a.jpg
     
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  9. steur

    steur

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    Location:
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    It wouldn't leave me alone, so I tried again with a real camera and processed the image with an infrared filter in Photoshop. Pretty sure it says "Antilope", which makes sense.

    BP2B6472.jpg
     
  10. mayserwegener

    mayserwegener

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    Stefan, Thank you for the great detective work!
     
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  11. Mean Eyed Matt

    Mean Eyed Matt Practically Family

    Messages:
    759
    Location:
    Germany
    J. Hückel's Söhne "Prima" for the French market:
    this hat was sold by "Chapeau Raoul" in Nevers
    Label says "A V" so "Alpha Velour", as Steve indicated
    French Point 6 1/2 (fits perfectly), possibly (late) 1920s (?)
    brim at 6.3 cm, crown at the dent at impressive 12.5 cm
    5.5 cm crown ribbon with a very nice bow treatment
    The "ventilation system" at the front is unusual -
    I only know this feature from Borsalino hats...
    Nice condition except some stains on the lining

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    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  12. Mean Eyed Matt

    Mean Eyed Matt Practically Family

    Messages:
    759
    Location:
    Germany
    To put it mildly:
    probably the little cousin in shape and age
    of Steve's fantastic 1900 Habig Bowler...
    J. Hückel's Söhne Melone/Bowler/Derby
    This stiff felt is really rather semi-stiff:
    Completely dented by shipping :eek:,
    but easily recovered thanks to this fact.
    It comes with a wind cord & strongly bent up side brim.
    The sweat has no print and is quite simple (but still soft);
    the black lining with the gold logo is what drew me to it.
    As far as the age is concerned, I'm a little unsure:
    The shape reminds me a lot of Steve's Habig;
    I didn't find this JHS label in his list so far...
    Nevertheless, I think: pre WWI - maybe 1900s!?

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  13. mayserwegener

    mayserwegener

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    Location:
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    Matt, Fantastic find! Everything about it is great! It has a Post WWI Type 8 Paper label. I have a American Market JHS "Zephyr Seal Velour" with the same ventilation system. I am not aware of any other examples so yours is the second one. I have no idea why the quality types of the liners and paper label don't match. There are two examples of "Prima" on the Liner and "A V" on the Paper label. Only one example with "Prima" on the Liner and "Prima Vel." on the Paper Label but it's from a later time period. The fourth "Prima" example doesn't have a Paper label photo but my guess is that it also has the "A V" Alpha Velour mark.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
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  14. mayserwegener

    mayserwegener

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    Matt, Again, Super Find! I believe you are correct about it being from the same time period as my P. & C. Habig Wien "Grand Prix Paris" Stiff Felt. They both have similar Forms. Also they have similar thin Sweatband type and Black Liner type. I believe this is the first time I have seen the "HF" quality type. Do you have any idea what "HF" might stand for? I will have to think about it. :) I believe this the second oldest JHS Soft or Stiff Felt Hat I have record of. The new Paper Label Type has the JHS crest in the upper left corner so similar to one of the Paper labels on Garrett's JHS "Loutre" Soft Felt (it has a second Cell Paper label) which I believe is the oldest JHS Soft or Stiff Felt Hat I have record of.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
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  15. Mean Eyed Matt

    Mean Eyed Matt Practically Family

    Messages:
    759
    Location:
    Germany
    Thank you, Steve, for your commentary and expert assessment of the JHS Melone:
    I'm glad to hear that you have a very similar point of view on the age -
    "second oldest JHS Soft or Stiff Felt Hat you have record of" is like an award!
    And at the same time I am pleased to be able to show you a paper label
    that is - although comparable - new in the details... ;)

    As far as the quality designation is concerned, I have looked
    through the old labels with the crest and such stamped letters.
    I found: E (soft) - J (soft) - W (stiff) - and now the HF (stiff)
    At first I thought the "HF" could be something like "HalbFest" = semi-stiff,
    because the felt is very flexible (later designation "Flexibel" - HF = HalbFlexibel?!?).
    But then I don't know what the other abbreviations are supposed to mean.
    I can hardly imagine that the "J" stands for "Jota" like the later designation.
    And the "E" = "Elastic"??? This one is later actually for stiff felt hats!
    I have no solution at all for the "W" - not even an idea!
    Do you have any idea what the other letters mean?
    It is at least interesting that in your list of labels for a bowler hat
    with an old label - large coat of arms and still no quality designation underneath
    - not only such a letter is stamped behind "Qual.", but also the new,
    complete designation "Plume". This is a kind of transitional label?
     
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  16. Mean Eyed Matt

    Mean Eyed Matt Practically Family

    Messages:
    759
    Location:
    Germany
    Steve, thanks again for the additions:
    Interesting for me is the rarity of this ventilation system
    - perhaps only on special order of the buyer by the hat shop?

    The non-matching designations on lining/sweat and label is strange,
    but probably not to be clarified, because coincidental. But I have
    also thought that it might be similar to different car models:
    First there is a model, then later a name is added to the model (equipment)
    and later the old model name is completely dropped and the car continues
    to run under the additional name. Maybe it's the same with "Prima"...
     
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  17. mayserwegener

    mayserwegener

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    Location:
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    Matt, Again a Super Find! I believe you are correct about it being from the same time period as my P. & C. Habig Wien "Grand Prix Paris" Stiff Felt. They both have the very thin Sweatband type and similar Black Liner type. I believe this is the first time I have seen the "HF" quality type. Do you have any idea what "HF" might stand for? I will have to think about it. :) I believe this the second oldest JHS Soft or Stiff Felt Hat I have record of. The Paper label has the JHS crest in the upper left corner so similar to one of the Paper labels on Garrett's JHS "Loutre" Soft Felt (it has a second Cell Paper label) which I believe is the oldest JHS Soft or Stiff Felt Hat I have record of.
    Matt, This early JHS Carton Label shows an "Ex" for Quality which I am thinking is "Extra". My guess is the "E" Quality designations might be "Extra".

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    Garrett's Soft Felt "Loutre" is the oldest JHS Hat we have encountered. It also has an "E" Quality mark so maybe that is "Extra". The above Carton Label is from the same time period based on the Label Format.

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    The "Plume" Quality mark could be transitional but the Stiff Felt appears to be early 1900s. Also it has "Eureka" on the Liner & Sweatband but no mention on the Paper Label.

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    I have no idea about the other Quality Letters (single and combos). I will have to look through the old JHS Invoices / Receipts that I have.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
  18. Mean Eyed Matt

    Mean Eyed Matt Practically Family

    Messages:
    759
    Location:
    Germany
    Thanks again, Steve: The "E" for "Extra" makes sence - good eye
    Garrett's fantastic old "Loutre" is the the hat I had in mind for that.
    I have the feeling that this category continued until WWII.

    But do you have any guess about the time slot for the introduction
    of the quality categories like Alpha, Sigma, etc. which are so "dominant"
    in the 1930s - but when did they start with this?

    And for the other Quality Letters I will think about twice...
     
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  19. mayserwegener

    mayserwegener

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    Matt, Sounds plausible. There are also "Durit" Liners / Sweatbands with "J. V." on the Paper Label Type 8. The "Alpha", "Sigma" and "Jota" Liners / Sweatbands match for Paper Label Type 8. I haven't gone through the other JHS Post WWI Soft Felt Paper Label Types. I have some documents from when JHS switched their Quality marks post WWI that might (being kind) clarify some of this.
     
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  20. mayserwegener

    mayserwegener

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    Matt, Tonak also had the "Loutre" mark so was used post WWII. I have some documents (mentioned above) on the Post WWI Quality mark transition on my site. I believe the earliest is from 1920.

    JHS , Hat Factory, Neutitshein , September 1920

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    The revision of the stamping question in our company makes it necessary to inform the PT clientele that from now on we intend to equip our products with the quality "stamping". We would also like to add that the customer is always free to add your company name under our punch. From the now starting to use punching you find the relevant deductions deeper. In order to avoid disturbances in the realization of the orders given to us, on the other hand, in order to clarify this matter, we request that we inform you as soon as possible of your opinion on this decision.

    Sincerely
    JHS

    Kopfstanze = Die for Crown Liner

    Lederstanze = Die for Sweatband

    This document shows the time period (1920) when JHS started using the "Standard", "Extra" and "Special" Quality designations. You can see the other documents starting here.

    https://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/topic/6-johann-hückel´s-söhne-hückel-hutfabrik-weilheim/?do=findComment&comment=1991

    I will have to go back through these documents again. At one time I might have had a better understanding. :) If possible please take a look. I might have some other documents so I will have to check.

    I have been conservative dating Post WWI JHS Soft and Stiff Felt Hats. Some probably go back to the early 1920s.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021

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