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Discussion in 'Hats' started by HamilcarBarca3, Aug 5, 2013.
The Akubra Cattleman's hat only gets a stare when I go to the city, the travelling Fedora- same.
This last Saturday, my wife and I enjoyed a picnic at Wailand winery ( http://www.wailandwein.at/galerie ) which is located on a hill above Vienna and has stunning views of the Danube, etc. The weather was very nice and I was wearing my Panama. We had our blanket between the vines and it was loaded with cheeses and bread and salami, etc., and a bottle of their local wine, of course. At some point my wife pointed out to me that more than one person had gone out of their way to include us in their scenic photos of vines and hills. I like to think that it was the Panama hat that added that extra little bit of romance to the scene to make us/it photo-worthy.
Not to mention you're in VIENNA!
Thanks for the reality check! Sometimes ---not often!--- I start to take it for granted that I am lucky enough to live and work here. It is an amazing place. One of the things that I like about Vienna is that it is a fairly hat-friendly place. During the fall-winter-spring it is not uncommon at all to see nice lids around town. Usually no one gives it a second thought. A lot of people also wear traditional Austrian hats (of which there are many kinds, depending exactly what part of the country you are from). Some of them are very sharp.
Last week I was in Canterbury, and decided to take a look around their nice cathedral. I was wearing a grey fedora and, as I have studied the advice on here on 'hatiquette' and was only walking round, not sitting, I kept it on my head.
As I passed one of the guides inside the door I took a leaflet from her and she said, "Excuse me, sir, but may I ask you about your hat?". "Certainly", I said with a grin, having an idea of the way this was going but deciding to ham it up for all I was worth, "What would you like to know?". "Well," she said, "we don't request that people remove their hats...." "Good", I interjected quickly, "as that would be unusual". Not too flustered, she continued, "...but we do like to just remind them that they are wearing them".
I thanked her for reminding me, and continued on my merry way.
I have only ever been asked to remove my hat in one place, and that was inside the Houses of Parliament. They may or may not have a Rule about it, but as I was being asked by two uniformed men, I decided not to question it and did as I was asked.
Personally, I'd remove it in the actual chapel out of respect.
You were being asked to remove your hat in the cathedral as well, you just ignored it.
" as I have studied the advice on here on 'hatiquette' and was only walking round, not sitting, I kept it on my head."
More study required.
The guide was being polite, as well as gracious and subtle... you sir were being obtuse and ill mannered.
You guys are too funny. I'm reading this as the museum person pointing out that should he want to, he could remove his hat, although it wasn't required for him to do so; if she was bold enough to say something to start with, I doubt she'd then go passive aggressive on him. As always, there are many good reasons for people to leave their hats on.
"You guys are too funny."
"Well," she said, "we don't request that people remove their hats...." "Good", I interjected quickly, "as that would be unusual". Not too flustered, she continued, "...but we do like to just remind them that they are wearing them".
She was being polite in a most understated British way.
"Good", I interjected quickly, "as that would be unusual".
Do take note of the word "quickly", but not before the word "interjected", aka interrupted; the arrogance of which, continued and seemingly does still.
I'm wasn't a museum, it was a church. And he admits that he knows what she was getting at, but decided to make her feel awkward anyway, simply because he could. That's the definition of gauche.
I have mixed feelings about this controversy.
I can't endorse wearing hats in chapels. But I believe the chapel should not have a wishy-washy policy that permits wearing hats inside it even though they obviously don't like it. That wishy-washiness is what gives rise to the awkward situation that has been described. If they don't want hats worn in their chapel, then they should make a rule that bans that practice.
I don't want to give B1ggles too much of a hard time for what we've perceived as a faux pas. IF he was checking the lounge for advice beforehand, he obviously cares at least a little about decorum and etiquette, so let's ease up.
Over in the hat etiquette thread, there has been some discussion on headware in houses of worship. Those of the Jewish faith tend to cover their heads, most Christians see it as a sign of respect to remove their hat in the sanctuary. I don't want to make too many assumptions, and I hope he comes back and engages, but, as many forms of decorum have gone by the wayside, perhaps they're not ingrained in him like they are in some of us, who may be a bit older. To some of us, many of these things come naturally, as that's the mores we we grew up with. If B1ggles is a bit younger, he may have a different perspective.
I disagree that the chapel should have some hard and fast rule, and maybe post signs. Some social graces should be recognized by the society at-large without reminders, and this is one of them, along with saying please and thank you and not blowing your nose on your host's drapes.
Even though I believe formal hat etiquette is dead and buried, the reasons the etiquette existed are still valid. That is to be respectful and to not give unintended offense. Some people seem to get lost in the minutia of the old rules and forget why those rules existed in the first place.
If you are in a situation (church, funeral, meeting someone of importance etc.) where wearing your hat would likely be perceived as disrespectful, you take it off.
If someone takes the time to ask/suggest that you remove your hat, you take it off (regardless of what the "rules" say) unless you wish to be openly disrespectful to that person/situation.
One doesn't need to bother with the archaic rules. One just needs to use common sense and have common courtesy.
Interesting! Up here it's the reverse - you can get away with anything in a big city like London and nobody bats an eyelid, whereas once you hit the backwaters.... I've been on the tube in full drag with not a peep; in Belfast, I've been shouted at in the street for wearing a cap. Just down to what people are used to, I guess, though I've never quite understood why they feel the need to remark the way they do sometimes. "Oi you - you're wearing a HAT!" Er, yes, I'm quite aware.... I mean, in the public street. Grown adults...
Parliament has a fixed rule on this. It's the same with the courts - no headwear. I've seen folks thrown out of courtrooms in the UK for declining to remove a baseball cap at the request of the judge (thereby putting themselves into contempt of court - technically a crime). It's partly about respect, but also security.
Christian churches, as a rule, regard it as disrespectful for men to wear a hat while in the premises - the reverse of the Jewish tradition (I've been requested before now to wear a Yarmulke when visiting synagogues; the only problem I ever had with that was keeping it on. Lack of hair to clip it to....). The rules for ladies vary significantly. Back in the early seventies, my aunt and my mother were once informed, from the pulpit, during service, that they would not be welcome to come forward take communion because they were not wearing hats. (Paisley's church.... so somewhat unsurprising that they wre less than compromising!)
This was not passive aggression, but rather a particular form of English politeness where they do this dance of suggesting things that you "might like" to do, in the expectation that you will pick up on the social cue and follow the instruction. It can be delivered in a passive aggressive manner, but it is not, in itself, passive aggressive. They remind me of the Chinese sometimes - they're mustard for 'suggesting', and saying 'Maybe you'd like to hand this in, because the deadline is today' and such. No aggression in it, it's just a cultural notion of politeness.
Very well put sir!
I think it was indeed about politeness, but I disagree on the sort of politeness. Canterbury Cathedral is just as much a tourist destination as it is a place of worship, and as such, it draws visitors from a wide range of cultures and conditions, not all of whom agree on when it is appropriate to remove hats. To me, the staff member's request was fantastic: we remind you that you're wearing a hat so that if you are inclined to remove it, you may, but if you're inclined to keep it on (for whatever reason), you may. That's the core of this politeness: the staff member isn't placed in a position where she has to insist that a man remove his hat, only to be rebuffed on cultural (or other) grounds, and the man isn't shamed or embarrassed into removing a hat if he doesn't feel the need to do so. Everyone walks away, ideally, feeling whole and good. Hooray!
The point is that the poster knew he was being asked to remove his hat and why. Yet by his own admission decided to push back and refuse, simply to have a laugh at someone. That's the height of rudeness and the "it's all about me" mentality that gives hat wearers a bad name.