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Is it ok to negotiate and/or offer less than the listed price? What qualifies as a low ball offer?

Superfluous

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I just read a thread in the classified section wherein several members denounced the practice of offering to purchase a jacket for less than the listed price. Frankly, I was surprised by the disapproval. I have sold several jackets here on TFL and, in every instance, I received offers for less than the listed price, including from well-respected members, and I sold each of the jackets for less than the listed price. Likewise, in the one instance where I purchased a jacket from the TFL classifieds, I offered less than the asking price, a negotiation ensued, and I paid less than the asking price – materially less. IMHO, such negotiations are inherent in the process of buying and selling used jackets, among other things, and certainly not inappropriate or offensive. In fact, many sellers intentionally list their jackets, and other products, at a price exceeding what they hope to net precisely because they anticipate a negotiation and want to leave room to discount the price as part of the expected negotiation.

There is nothing wrong with buyers attempting to negotiate a good deal on a jacket, or even a below market deal. Depending on a multitude of factors and circumstances, many sellers are willing to accept below-market prices in order to complete a sale. There is nothing wrong with a buyer seeking such a deal. The seller remains free to decline.

Likewise, there is nothing wrong with a seller seeking to make money through the sale of a jacket and/or seeking to maximize his/her return by starting at a high asking price. Many here, including well-respected members, have acknowledged selling jackets for more than they paid for them and thereby making money through the buying and selling of jackets. Perfectly appropriate.

Some espouse the belief that, if the original asking price is “fair” or a “good deal,” potential buyers should not offer less and/or negotiate. However, the determination of what is a “fair” price or a “good deal” is entirely subjective, and one person’s “fair” price is another person’s rip-off. Therefore, I disagree with the notion that, if a jacket is priced “fairly,” counteroffers are inappropriate.

IMHO, if a seller does not want to receive offers for less than the asking price, he or she should expressly state as such in the listing (and buyers should abide).

Many here condemn the practice of “low-ball” offers. What exactly is a “low-ball” offer? What qualifies as a “low-ball”? Is it defined by a percentage of the asking price? What percentage below asking is a “low-ball”? What if the original asking price is particularly high and/or perceived as well above market – in that case, can one offer a larger percentage below asking without qualifying as a “low ball”? What if the original asking price is particularly low and/or perceived as well below market – in that case, do even small discounts qualify as a “low-ball”? Who makes these determinations?

The bottom line is that, in most instances, the determination of a “low-ball” offer is as subjective as the determination of a “fair” or “good price,” and all of these various subjective determinations are inextricably interrelated.

Some sellers bemoan the receipt of “low-ball” offers as exasperating and taxing? What is the big deal? It takes three seconds to scan and delete the message. If you are so inclined, you can spend an additional five seconds typing “no thank you” and hit send. Either way, it is far from an onerous or oppressive occurrence. I have received many offers that I personally considered way, way below the market price of my jacket. Five seconds later, my “no thank you” reply is sent and I move on. The exchange does not cause me the slightest bit of aggravation.

Recently, I was on the fence about a jacket offered for sale here. I was concerned that it would not fit. It was very expensive and I was unwilling to take the risk at the listed price. I offered 20% below the listed price (I didn’t intend to offer exactly 20% below, but that is what it ended up being). The seller politely declined. I did not follow-up and the jacket subsequently sold. Was my offer of 20% below asking a low-ball? I didn’t think so. Rather, the offer was what I was willing to pay under the circumstances, including my concern about the fit and my ability to resell the jacket if it didn’t fit. The seller stood firm and appropriately so as he subsequently sold it for more. Good for him.

I recently purchased a substantial piece of art. The seller’s broker told me that she would not communicate an offer to the seller that was less than 20% of the listed price because it would be “offensive” to the seller. I was unwilling to pay 80% of the asking price and, therefore, I said nothing for several weeks. Then, in defiance of the broker’s statement, I offered 33% of the asking price. Notwithstanding her prior statement, the broker communicated my offer to the seller without comment. I ended up buying the piece for 30% of the asking price. Was my 33% discount offer a “low-ball”? Clearly not given the ultimate sale price.

When I purchased my first new car (many moons ago), I went to the dealer to do some research, with no intention of purchasing the car during that visit. The salesman asked what it would take to make the deal. Not wanting to purchase the car at that time, I stated a ridiculously low price. The salesman recoiled in horror at my insanely low offer and expressed forthright confidence that the dealership would never sell the car for that price. Over the next two hours, the salesman, and then his manager, progressively lowered their asking price in approximately eight incremental decreases, each time expecting me to raise my offer. I never raised my offer once . . . because I did not intend to purchase the car at that time. After this two hour dance, the dealership sold me the car for my original, ridiculously low offer. What is the moral of the story? My ridiculously low offer probably wasn’t that low or ridiculous and I probably could have purchased the car for even less.

I agree with those who condemn pestering buyers who continue to pursue a discount even after the buyer declines or does not respond. If the seller counters and a negotiation follows, that’s great. However, if the seller declines or does not respond, the buyer should stand down. Further efforts at this point are inappropriate.

Now, having lit the fuse, I am going to put on my fire retardant jacket and run for cover.
 

El Marro

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Interesting post Super.
I would not be overly bothered by people making low offers on a jacket that I had for sale, after all I have done the same thing myself with jackets on eBay from time to time. You are quite right that it is simple to either ignore a low offer or to quickly decline it and move on.
In my business life though, it is a different story. I provide prices for electrical work once I have completed a site visit and met with the client. Most of the time clients are very happy with my proposal and once we iron out a few details they are ready to proceed with the work. From time to time though I meet someone who thinks that my prices are negotiable or that they have a better understanding of the work than I do and therefore can explain to me why it should cost less. When this occurs I often do get annoyed and I usually tell the client that we are not a good fit for one another and move on.
 

Guppy

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What it comes down to is that the seller can set the price, and entertain offers, or not. That's all there is to it. If they set a reasonable price, and decline lower offers, then they may eventually get what they asked for. Or they may wait a long time. Time is often more valuable than money.
 

NYDRH

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257
I am in agreement, I generally believe everything is negotiable unless expressly mentioned.

As far as low balls, I only get annoyed when items that are in high demand, rare or obviously fairly priced get an offer ~50% below your list. I realize with certain jackets it's not always obvious what a "fair" price is but usually an ebay search or similar will turn up relative pricing.

I recently sold a fine creek leon custom for ~$1400 they're in demand, a bunch have sold on eBay recently, the retail price is known and recent so when someone offers me $750 I find it annoying. It's a niche product and anyone trying to buy it second hand knows what it's worth +/- so the waste of time bothers me but as you said it's only a few seconds. On eBay it's easier because I just use the insta decline under a certain price point.

But in general I feel like it's always negotiable some people need cash or closet space. I try to operate a strict one in one out and if my eyes get bigger than closet, I might become more motivated to clear something out.
 
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Good read, @Superfluous and I absolutely agree on most points.

To me, a low-ball offer is anything below 70%, maybe 60% of what I listed the item for. Reasoning such as, not sure it'll fit, in this case doesn't mean anything at all. Lower price will not make the jacket more likely to fit.

In any case, offers are perfectly fine and okay in my book but lowballers will are a particularity kind that'll throw in really low offers, such as $30 of what you're asking, all the while being very peculiar about minute details concerning the transaction & telling you how you're actually getting a fantastic deal here. That's what's taxing and time consuming about low-ballers; not the offer itself. That's a low-baller to me.
 
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Why in the world are some of us now becoming so damn sensitive here lately? Especially about buying and selling, keeping our mouths shut or tap dancing around about what everyone should post, not post, reveal or keep secret. It seems society now has fed or bled this over kill of finding offense in practically everything into so many areas of our lives and conversation. Are we now really that delicate? I hope not.
HD
 

Marc mndt

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6,768
It could be a European approach vs an American one.
We Europeans haggle as well. But I do ask a seller whether he's open for offers before I make any.

I had listed a Thedi for 650. I received an offer of 300. That's what I call lowballing and a waste of my time. I felt offended by that offer. Why would I sell a Thedi for 300? If I needed the money that bad, I shouldn't buy high end jackets in the first place. What is such a seller thinking?
 

TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead

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there's not going to be one correct answer here.

I think if something has been listed long time, it's ok to make a so called low ball offer. If something is new listing and has 20 comments in an hour, well...

Ultimately, the price of something is what someone else is willing to pay for it. End of story. That could mean the same thing has many price points because maybe that certain person hasn't come along yet to make a better bid. So it's a combination of a bunch of different cliches-- bird in hand, waiting game, poker bluff, etc.

I do agree with some general rules of thumb however. If your price is firm you should mention. If you try and low ball, raising in small increments is kind insulting i.e. someone asking $1000, you offer $500, $505, $510, etc. Then it becomes more of a time sink.

There's a really cool psychological experiment you can play with your friends. Ask them if they would do something not so pleasurable for $1 million dollars. Once they say yes, would they do it for $999,000? Yes. Would they do it for $998,000? And so on. What becomes the magic number where for a $1000 difference they will or won't do? You'd be surprised how far off $1mm they come down from where they originally struggled with whether they would do for the original million.
 

Marc mndt

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So you have a leather jacket for sale asking $600. Would you take $400? No? OK thanks and good luck! How bout $ 525? YES..OK ...money is on the way!! Is negotiating in this way really so intolerable?
In many cases, that's indeed how it works. Actually, that's exactly how I buy stuff from Vinted.

But I personally feel that the classifieds section here is different from eBay and vinted. Here we all know exactly how much a jacket costs new and what they go for second hand. So why should I ask 900 for an Aero If everyone here on the forum knows it's worth 500. If I list something here in the classifieds, I list it for a price that I feel is fair and on par with market value.
 

jonesy86

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It could be a European approach vs an American one.
Good point, bargaining is definitely influenced by a particular cultural norm. I have traveled to many developing countries and bought artisanal items and clothing. Often you bargain in market places and not in formal retail stores. When bargaining in many places I would offer half the asking price and the seller would meet me in the middle. If you offer too little they will not sell. Same as in a car dealership, if they don't make a profit they won't sell the car.

I had a jacket for sale here last year and came down on the price several times to about 1/3rd lower than what I was originally asking, until I put up a price that I stated was my rock bottom. Someone offered a price under that and I declined, and said I was going to keep it, a decision I am happy with. The guy who made the low offer got miffed and said something rude about how I could only wear the jacket sitting in an air conditioned bar in a luxury hotel. I thought to myself for $50 more he could have gotten a great jacket for a pretty damn good price, his loss.

If someone offers a price that is too high for you, then don't buy it. If someone offers a price for something that you are selling that is too low, don't sell it.

Often OBO helps let people know you are willing to move on price, and if you state that your price if firm, then I would not offer less, although people sometimes change their minds about these things.

No reason to get bent out of shape over any of this.

Interestingly on this island tourists generally pay more for many things than locals do. That is definitely the case in many places I have visited in my travels to developing countries.
 

dudewuttheheck

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I have no issue with people trying to negotiate. I have haggled and I expect people to haggle as well. There have been cases when I have refused to budge on the price and that's when I know I have something that will sell for my asking price. I am never upset though when people do make me lower offers for those items. Instead, I simply politely decline and explain the circumstances. Haggling is just part of selling secondhand items.
 

navetsea

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I kind of feel the world is turning into a fixed/ listed price system since places where people used to buy things in informal traditional market place where they negotiate, haggle and over charge unfamiliar buyers for the same goods or service are quickly replaced by formal modern market where everything has barcode and fixed price or discount, seems like the art of haggling is also fading in normal day to day activity, sometime it can be outright shameful; I once went with the father of my half sister and listened to him haggling over the listed price of a notebook PC to the young probably part time shopkeeper at electronic mall where everything has fixed price who didn't know how to react to that and finally he was happy with the screenguard and antivirus bonus which were already mentioned on the brochure... I got to step out the room when he did that, or very boring when I went with my grandma to traditional market where to her every little victory in haggling seemed highly amusing, so we spent 5 minutes in front of mango seller just to get extra 2 mangoes where she bought 2 kilos, 5 minutes at the fish stall went empty handed, and so on, listening to unhappy seller's tantrum just for very small gain

Honestly I never haggle, or make an offer, I'm inexperience in that art, I just ask what is the best price you can offer me, based on that either I buy or go elsewhere.

I understand in bigger scale business or business to business negotiating price is very normal, but in everyday commerce I try to avoid it if I can.
I also feel the price of item someone's made themself, or the price someone mention of his service is a bit taboo to me to negotiate to since I do work in the same field, and I hate it when someone ask me a discount for my already low fee just because he wants to order more pages which don't make any sense since I have to work on every one of them and I already working on parallel projects unlike I'm selling oranges where I can give one or two for free.

so yeah I won't be offended to any lower offers if I try to sell some old PC when I need to upgrade mine, but I feel weird to haggle price on the new PC I want to buy, I just ask if that's is the best they can offer me, and comparing prices either online or with other shops.

sorry I went off the rail, since I never buy or sell jackets, I just compared it to PC...
 
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Buco

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What slightly annoys me is when you sell items on auction at a very minimal starting price knowing that you will always get a fairly decent sale price and early in the auction buyers will come and offer you a fiver or tenner thinking you may not know what the item is actually worth. That is a little uncalled for and verging on unscrupulous
 

jonesy86

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What slightly annoys me is when you sell items on auction at a very minimal starting price knowing that you will always get a fairly decent sale price and early in the auction buyers will come and offer you a fiver or tenner thinking you may not know what the item is actually worth. That is a little uncalled for and verging on unscrupulous
I would just laugh it off and simply not sell.
 

dwilson

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I swear when I would vacation in the Carribean with my father his hobby on the vacations was the haggle with the locals for 15% off their touristy shit that is already marked up 1000%. Why go on vacation to haggle over $5 on your Nassau Bahamas shot flight is beyond me.
 

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