Mallory's Everest jacket: gussets out there today?

[JeffOYB]

I tried to search this subject. I thought it had been done up here to an extent.

OK, they're working on reproducing Malloy's Everest attire. They found his body, right? They've also analyzed the performance of his apparel...and found it superior to today's outfits. I recall this was largely due to it being custom tailored.

I've often wanted to do outdoor activities in a traditional wool blazer. But the arms bind. I gather that gussets are the key. This doesn't seem like a big mystery---but they were also key to the Mallory jacket.

Are gussets for free-motion hard to find in wool blazers? I haven't found any in my thrifting---but should I be hopeful?

I note that the Duluth Trading Company catalog offers quite a few "working man's sportcoats"---and dress shirts---which are gusseted. And wool. And traditional yet snappy. But I'll still try to go vintage here, if I can.

Any likely tips for the bargain gusset hunter? ---Maybe they really are scarce and I should just find a sale on the Duluth stuff. (I got a GREAT canvas/leather shoulderbag from them online for $55. I never saw it in their print catalog and now other bags are $110 and up. So they do have sales and unusual items online.)

 

[nobodyspecial]

I've been scouring thrift stores for something similar and have yet to find one. I'm too frugal, some would say cheap, to pay retail for this style jacket as I won't wear it enough to justify the cost. Eventually I'll find one, but at times patience is hard to come by.

 

[Alan Eardley]

I had the pleasure of examining the replica Everest jacket at a seminar on performance clothing at Lancaster University.

Alan

 

[Rufus]

Ooh.. Did you manage to take any pictures Alan?

Kind regards,
Rufus

 

[Alan Eardley]

Ooh.. Did you manage to take any pictures Alan?

Kind regards,
Rufus

Rufus,

Sorry, no. I don't do pictures. Well, I do oils and watercolours, but I didn't have time for that. If you do a search on the forum, you'll find some photos of the stuff on a rack that someone (BT?) posted ages ago.


Here's a picture of the development team (from Southampton, Leeds, Lancaster and Derby Universities and from OMM Ltd). The two characters in the middle give a comparison of the Mallory era gear with a modern monutaineering outfit. No comparison for class!

Here's mountaineer Graham Hoyland on Everest. The original jacket was by Burberry. It cost less than 2000 USD.

Just to add that Conrad Anker and Lee Houlding reached the summit successfully on June 14th 2007 and returned safely to base camp. They reported that the clothing performed well, although it wasn't as warm when static as the more bulky modern suit. Also, they were wearing underwear by John Smedley of Matlock - I have a set of 1950s 'long johns' by Smedleys and swear by them.

Alan

 

[Trotsky]

This stuff is GREAT. I have been wanting to get my hands on some of Scott/Shackleton era Antarctic windproofs.
There was, at one point, a reenactment group in the UK that did Shackleton's 1909 expedition. They were very well outfitted.

 

[BellyTank]

So, Alan...

..from your fondling of said jacket, can you explain the construction of the pivot sleeve/gusset arrangement..? From the photo's I've seen, it seems rather odd-


B
T

 

[vintage68]

OK, they're working on reproducing Malloy's Everest attire. They found his body, right? They've also analyzed the performance of his apparel...and found it superior to today's outfits. I recall this was largely due to it being custom tailored.

That's intriguing, I would have thought the heavy wool and cottons would have held moisture and persperation like there was no tomorrow. What about the leather boots?!

 

[eightbore]

It might be surprising, but most who live and work in the north country will swear at synthetic fabrics and swear by wool. At -50F or worse, synthetics are just a great way to charge $1000 for what $500 worth of wool will accomplish...not much more difference. Cotton is death fabric for sure but there is nothing better than wool to keep you warm even when wet.

eightbore

 

[1stsargent]

I been on this forum for awhile and rarely post but I thought I might add my 2 cents on wool clothing when compared with synthetics. I have been an avid outdoorsmen for years now and have used everything from cotton to wool and alpaca to nylon and I must say that wool is a very good outdoor fabric under most cold weather activities. Where I don't like wool is when I am doing rigorous activities like snowboarding, cross country skiing and other activities that cause me to sweat alot. I found after a certain point they can't keep up with the sweat and become very wet and clammie than a GOOD set of synthetics, but I should add that synthetics aren't far and away superiour to wool just better. Were I think wool excels is when I am camping, light hiking or other activities were I not under constant excertion and movement. They keep me warmer and drier than any high end synthetic material out on the market today. They are alot more rugged and last longer than most synthetic fleeces and thermals too.
But it sometimes comes down to the person too. Some big time winter sports guys I know swear by wool and others can't stand the stuff for one reason or another. But for me and alot of other outdoorsmen I find wool practical and useful. I have a full lineup of wool clothing and will not give it up for anything.

 

[mister7]

"They've also analyzed the performance of his apparel...and found it superior to today's outfits."

I have to say I got a laugh out of this statement. I am guessing the guy that made it has never spent the night in a snow cave or doing anything else that involved actually getting and staying wet. I have been mountaineering for forty years or so, long enough that when I started everything was made of wool.

Your outfit would weigh about twenty pounds (dry!) and would not dry out for the duration of your trip. It was revolutionary when plastic clothes came out. Suddenly your outfit weighed 75% less and would actually dry out while you were wearing it.

Wool is hard to beat for some things, nothing else is as good for socks. But if you have to wear your clothes for four days straight, alternating between very hard work and sitting in the snow, you are gonna be a lot happier wearing plastic clothes.

 

[eightbore]

Obviously, a full on monsoon necessitates some plastic. There is a reason Bill and Vieve Gore made their millions after all. Still, even the high tech stuff will never breathe as well as wool and you will get wet from the inside if you are exerting yourself. The trick is trying to strike a balance between using synthetic fabric when you need it as a shell and taking it off when you just need warmth. If synthetics get wet from the inside or Wool gets full on soaked from the outside you might be in big trouble....were it not for the fact that wool can actually be wet without actually feeling that way (more absorbent). Now for more serious outdoor pursuits, wool has the huge advantage of being much quieter. Without the zip zip zip you hear when walking in synthetics, you might actually be able to sneak up on game while hunting.

JMHO,

eightbore

 

[Rooster]

The trick with wool is don't over do it. Pace yourself and don't break a big sweat. The modern fabrics allow you to over do it and survive.

 

[1stsargent]

"They've also analyzed the performance of his apparel...and found it superior to today's outfits."

Your outfit would weigh about twenty pounds (dry!) and would not dry out for the duration of your trip. It was revolutionary when plastic clothes came out. Suddenly your outfit weighed 75% less and would actually dry out while you were wearing it.

Wool is hard to beat for some things, nothing else is as good for socks. But if you have to wear your clothes for four days straight, alternating between very hard work and sitting in the snow, you are gonna be a lot happier wearing plastic clothes.

I could not agree more with your assesment. On long several day hikes wool is just to heavy to carry and does not dry fast enough.Also if you are sleeping in a snow cave or in harsh cold weather wool just can't compare to a good down jacket in being lightweight and still keeping you warm. For common cold weather activities wool works really well, but when the going gets tough wool just can't keep up.

 

[Alan Eardley]

"They've also analyzed the performance of his apparel...and found it superior to today's outfits."

I have to say I got a laugh out of this statement. I am guessing the guy that made it has never spent the night in a snow cave or doing anything else that involved actually getting and staying wet. <Snip>

The man who made a statement to this effect (Graham Hoyland) has summitted the highest mountain in the world a number of times and wore some of the reproduction 1924 clothing on the recent expedition to Everest to try it out. I don't know whether he has ever spent the night in a snow cave, but he surely has in bivouacs and tents on most of the world's highest mountains. I suspect that he knows that getting wet isn't the problem when climbing a 20,000+ feet peak - you are well below the freezing point. The main problems are wind chill and temperature control when changing from strenuous activity to rest and back again.

The statement given above is taken out of context. The clothing wasn't found to be 'superior to todays outfits' in all dimensions. The findings of the expedition were basically that the 1924 clothing performed better than was expected in terms of wind chill and allowed greater mobility and better temperature adjustment than the one-piece climbing suits used today. It was, however, markedly inferior to today's gear in terms of warmth at rest.

 

[Alan Eardley]

..from your fondling of said jacket, can you explain the construction of the pivot sleeve/gusset arrangement..? From the photo's I've seen, it seems rather odd-


B
T

Very perspicatious, my Antipodean chum, the gussets were odd. Assuming that the reproduction was accurate (which we are assured they are), I guess that they were added to the orginals as an afterthought. They are just a segment-shaped insertion into what seems to me to be a relatively normal 1920s sleeeve. This cannot 'work' in tailoring terms and will 'bag out' when the arm is held normallly. The nearest I can relate it to would be the gusset in a 'Parsons' or M1941 jacket, although the insert in the 1924 Everest jacket is longer than either of these.

The jacket I examined (only one of those made for the expedition, and the designs differ) was basically an Alpine climbing jacket such as are often seen in contemporary photographs of climbers in the Alps or even Scotland. It is basically a Norfolk jacket design in a finely woven cotton gabardine (somewhat like Grenfell cloth but not so fine as Ventile). It had bellows pockets, a removable belt (although the 1924 photos often show rope being used in this regard) and a throat latch. Most significantly, it was self-lined (i.e. double layered) as is often done today with the more expensive Ventile garments. It is surprising how light the kit is - more like Alpine gear than the Antartic gear that was available for extreme low temperatures.

It seems incredible that such light gear could be worn at thirty below. I think the key is in the people themselves - Sandy Irvine, particularly, was notoriously tough. On the way to Base Camp, there are photographs of both Mallory and Irvin wading through near-freezing Himalayan streams naked. This is sometimes commented on as some sort of deviant British public school practice but I suspect that, in fact, it served to keep their clothing dry (very important with wool) and to harden their bodies to the cold. I notice that the current crop of mountain 'hard men' don't do this....

Incidentally, I once had the opportunity to examine a jacket that was worn by one of the support team in the 1952 Everest expedition. It was owned by a man who had (if I remember correctly) been a medical student and keen climber and frequented Snowdonia (particularly the Pen-y-Gurid Hotel) at the time that the British contingent was doing its technical preparation there. He was taken on by the succesful expedition and served in a support role. Much later (perhaps after he retired), he became a noted personality in the Snowdonia area and was sometimes seen wearing the jacket he had worn on the expedition. As I recall it, it was mid blue, in Grenfell-type cloth (I suspect it was by Grenfell) and had a plain hood and full-length nickel zip (an Aero, I think). Nowadays, most people would think twice before wearing such a jacket to play golf in...

Alan

 

[nobodyspecial]

This book is a good read if you are interested in the development of clothing and gear from a British perspective. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780970414359&itm=1

Getting back to wool and fleece, they both have their place depending upon the activity. Wool will hold heat in longer as it dries much slower than synthetics. This can be a mixed blessing as your synthetic clothes dry faster, but your body also cools down much faster. I had a bad experience on a canoe trip once where I got REALLY COLD FAST while wearing synthetics. Wool tends to be more windproof and does not melt when a campfire spark lands on your clothes. Important safety tip - always remember not to pick up a hot pan with a synthetic glove. I still have the glove with the hole in it and still have the scar on my finger.

Years ago when I camped I wore wool as that was what was available, then I switched to synthetics because that was the latest and greatest, then I went retro to all wool and now I use some of each. I live in Minnesota and camp in forests and do not have any altitude issues. All these factors affect what I wear when I am in the bush.

 

[Alan Eardley]

This book is a good read if you are interested in the development of clothing and gear from a British perspective. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780970414359&itm=1

The authors of this book led the project to reproduce and test the 1924 Everest clothing. It is on sale at Amazon.co.uk (10.50 GBP)

Alan

 

[Alan Eardley]

More cold weather gear

Coincidentally, Channel 4 in the UK has just shown a prgramme in which Australian explorer Tim Jarvis carried out an experiment to recreate Mawson and Mertz's epic attempt to return to their coastal base camp frm deep in the Antarctic in 1912. As with the Everest 'reanactment' expedition, the equipment and clothing was as accurate as it could be made (more details are available than for Mallor and Irving et al). Here's what the original expedition wore daily as standard equipment. Bear in mind this is to get as near to the South Pole as they could and to live in the area unsupported, walking with sleds and sleeping in light canvas tents for up to a month:
Woollen long combination underwear
Woollen trousers
Burberry cloth (i.e. gabardine) over trousers, single ply
Burbery cloth anorak,single ply
Oiled woollen Jersey (or Guernsey) roll-neck pullover
Oiled woollen balaclava helmet
Burberry cloth hood.
Woollen stockings (two pairs)
Leather or sealskin boots
Snow goggles
Woollen gloves
Sealsking mittens

That's it - wool and no Goretex. But then remember that all of the worlds highest mountains and both poles were explored before Goretex was even thought of...however did they manage?

Alan

Alan

 

[mister7]

One might observe, as another poster did, Mallory and Irvine were the hardest of hard men. One might also note they were killed by exposure. Perhaps better clothing might have saved them?

My intent when climbing is not connected to any kind of fashion statement, but instead coming back in one piece.

Climbers attempting the 8000 meter peaks, "back in the day" lost extremeties at frightening rates and died quite often. Not that it can't still happen, but modern gear makes bad weather far more survivable.

Conrad Anker and his buddy are total studs who wanted to see how they would fare under the handicap of the clothing the pioneers wore. The point of the trip was not to prove wool clothes superior, but to survive with them.
If they were truely superior under the conditions, don't you think all the top mountaineers would be wearing them?

"more serious pursuits"?

Finally, a little mountaineering humor!