Montechristi Panamas: are these types of holes normal?

Discussion in 'Hats' started by Genuine Classic Gangster, Apr 20, 2016.

  1. Genuine Classic Gangster

    Genuine Classic Gangster One of the Regulars

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    All the Montechristi Panama vendors seem to say that no Panama hat is perfect. With that in mind, I made this thread to try and find out whether or not the type of hole that is shown in the pictures below is normal.

    In the first pic, on my screen the hole is displayed at about 1.75 inches above the bottom, and about 2.75 inches away from the edge of the right-hand side.

    In the second pic, the middle section shows an extreme close-up of what I believe to be the same hole as is shown in the first pic from a farther-back view.

    This hat has within it several holes similar to the one shown in these pics.

    Do you think those holes are normal?

    Would I get those kind of holes in any Montechristi Panama hat that I buy? Or would some Montechristi Panama hats not have holes like that in them?

    Thanks for your feedback.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
  2. LuvMyMan

    LuvMyMan Vendor

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    I think no one would pay attention unless you point it out to them.....BUT nothing ugly or all that bad in my opinion! If it is a nice looking hat, I would not worry about it!
     
  3. alanfgag

    alanfgag

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    These hats are woven by hand. There will be variations in the fineness and evenness of the weave. You have to juggle your tolerance for flaws with your sensitivity to cost. I would step back a few feet. Close up photos do not express the beauty of a beautifully made hat.
     
  4. Genuine Classic Gangster

    Genuine Classic Gangster One of the Regulars

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    At what price point, if any, would the types of holes shown in the original post become non-existent within a given hat?

    On a supplementary note, does weave count relate to whether or not such holes appear? Or could holes like that also appear on hats with extremely high weave counts?
     
  5. alanfgag

    alanfgag

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    I don't see holes... I see irregularities in the weave. Visit Brent Black's website and click on the weave photographs on this page. It might help.
     
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  6. Genuine Classic Gangster

    Genuine Classic Gangster One of the Regulars

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    Thanks for the tips. I actually did visit Brent Black's page prior to making this thread. As far as I can tell, that site does not directly answer the questions that I am asking in this thread.

    I'm not asking whether or not irregularities in the weave are inevitable.

    Rather, I am asking whether or not holes in the weave are inevitable. The pics in the OP show at least one example of where the hat has a hole in it. The hole looks as if someone stuck a pin, or the tip of a pencil, through the hat at that point. I'm sure that's not what actually happened; I'm just making the analogy to try and describe the effect about which I am inquiring.

    Granted, the holes are kind of hard to see, because most of the weave does not have holes in it. When I have more time, maybe I'll try to use MS Paint to denote where the the holes are located and then re-upload the photos.

    I appreciate the contributions of yourself alanfgag, and of LuvMyMan. Although as of yet, I still am unclear about what the answers are to questions such as:

    1. Do all Montechristi hats have holes like the one shown in the photos?

    2. If not all Montechristi hats have holes like that, what determines whether or not a hat will have those kind of holes (i.e. does it depend on the skill of the weaver and the amount of errors that he or she makes?, does it depend on the weave count? does it depend on something else?)?

    3. If not all Montechristi hats have holes like that, how might I guarantee that when I buy a Montechristi hat, it won't have any...presuming I am buying hats online, and buying them sight unseen (and even if i see pics of the hats before I buy them, that doesn't help with this issue...because pics might show what the hat looks like overall, but not how many small holes it has within it)?
     
  7. jlee562

    jlee562 I'll Lock Up

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    I don't think that's necessarily a hole. It looks like it might just be an irregularity in the weave. But if it were a hole, I don't think there is an actual satisfactory answer to your question. It might have had a price tag attached to the brim at some point?
     
  8. Genuine Classic Gangster

    Genuine Classic Gangster One of the Regulars

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    I have now updated the photos in the OP with edited versions that have the hole marked.

    It's not a matter of a price tag being attached to the brim. The hat has various holes of the same kind in various other places (although they do tend to be in the brim rather than in the crown). I assume that such holes must have first appeared during the weaving process. But I don't know anything about that, which is why I made this thread in hopes to understand what is going on here.
     
  9. LuvMyMan

    LuvMyMan Vendor

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    (It was the mini bazooka that made the holes....hahahahaha ) JUST smile a bit! It would be par for the course on hat making per being done by hand, for something like this to appear is what the more "expert" hat lovers here are telling you. But if you would like to know if a $400.00 panama would have more "irregular" issues on a hat over a $12,000.00 hat, the answer would or should be yes...BUT as it is a hand made panama anything can happen.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
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  10. LuvMyMan

    LuvMyMan Vendor

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    Another thing you could do, if you are making a purchase online and the seller can actually examine the hat prior to your paying for it, see if you can send these pictures, ask for the seller to examine the hat closely and inform you if there are similar gaps, holes, what ever seen on the hat. That way you can make a informed choice. I always try to remember to ask and ask and ask questions before buying anything online. I sure hope this will help you some. I do understand your concerns. We all desire to have an attractive looking hat, with as few flaws as possible.
     
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  11. TheDane

    TheDane Call Me a Cab

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    I remember a so-called 404 page (the error page shown, when a requested web page cannot be found). It said:
    "This is not an error. It's a feature!
    Please report annoying features to webmaster."

    I'm afraid you may not be cut out for Montecristis. They are hand woven from palm fibers - not cast in plastic.

    Palm fibers do not come in endless lengths on a spool. As the hat is woven, the weaver will have to add fibers to the ones he started with. Everytime he adds a fiber, it's laid alongside the one to be extended - they can't be "butted" together. This will inevitably result in the tiny irregularities you interpret as "holes". Yes, they are part of a genuine Montecristi.

    You will also find, that the brim on a finely woven Monte has some small irregularities, when viewed from the top or bottom. The edge is not completely straight/even. On top of that variations in humidity will make it wave a bit up and down.

    Things like that are part of the charm and character of a genuine Montecristi. If you find them annoying, I would not advice you to buy a Montecristi.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
  12. hatsRme

    hatsRme I'll Lock Up

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    Perfect strategy.
     
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  13. carouselvic

    carouselvic I'll Lock Up

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    Those "holes" occur as new fiber are added in. As you weave away from crown on the brim, more strands are needed to make a greater circumference.
    [​IMG]
    On a finer hat the "holes" are not as noticeable, but on a coarser weave they stand out a little more.
     
  14. moontheloon

    moontheloon I'll Lock Up

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    This thread prompted me to look at a montecristi from the 30s that I have.
    When I did I noticed these "holes" all in a uniform line.
    This lends itself to what others like Vic and Ole above have said.
    these can only really be seen when held up to direct light

    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone while orbiting the earth in a sea foam green 1957 Cadillac
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
  15. This thread reminds me of when we had granite countertops put in the kitchen. My wife complained that there were dark streaks running through some areas and large crystals in others. I said "Yes! That's the point. We're paying extra for the fact that it's real rock." The point of a handmade Montecristi is that...well, it's a handmade Montecristi. Appreciate the originality and the craftsmanship, not worry that it's not to some exact standard.
     
  16. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim One Too Many

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    In anything hand-woven, minor irregularities are part of the appeal. It's not a big, it's a feature.
     
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  17. emigran

    emigran Practically Family

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    Hand-rolled cigars vs machine rolled seemed to be a perfect analogy to the topic 'at hand'... appreciation seems to be the common consideration...
    Ever have a tomato grown in the little old man down the street's garden and then one perfect commercial supermarket variety... the one that's lumpy and misshapen is a taste treat and the other merely looks "perfect"
     
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  18. LuvMyMan

    LuvMyMan Vendor

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    Yes indeed...the ol Tomato! So far some deep thinking responses to the question about those holes. I would guess as long as the holes are not made by an external force, (12 gauge shotgun pellets) the holes are going to be someplace on a hat unless maybe you have one for a pretty high pricetag. And even then maybe some super small ones...but there any way.
     
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  19. Bob Roberts

    Bob Roberts I'll Lock Up

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    I've smoked some pretty bad hand rolled cigars.
     
  20. Monavillecowboy

    Monavillecowboy One of the Regulars

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    Location:
    Monaville, TX
    They're hand woven and irregularities are inevitable. The only folks I've known to complain about such things are those who think they know more than they do and those that don't know anything at all.
    I once had a complaint about the stain inside the crown. It was only part of the Ecuadorian stamp.
     

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