Replicating my old USAF flight jacket

[SteveZ]

Hi fellahs,

Im in the process of putting together a nylon flight jacket that I wore in the AF. It will be the CWU MA2 type in sage green color. I am collecting a few patches to be sewn on the garment. Ive located most of them but the single most important one I have not located as of yet. It was the first duty assignment I received when out of boot camp. I guess my first duty posting was the most memorable to me.

The patch Im searching for is the 4787th AIR BASE GROUP @ DULUTH MN. ( AEROSPACE DEFENSE COMMAND , 23rd NORAD REGION SECTOR ) It was the old fighter defense command of the USAF. The active units were flying the F-106 Delta Dart in the old alert huts. There was a MINN. AIR NATIONAL GUARD UNIT at the the far end of the field that was flying the F-101 VooDoo 2 seat version. ( watching those babies take of at night with both cans lit was a real treat !

If anyone runs across one of the group patches Im looking for, give me a shout !

 

[SteveZ]

Just so I get it right the first time............. as far as shoulder patches are concerned, a ' command ' patch is always placed on the left shoulder. There will be an American flag ' reversed ' on the right shoulder. If theres an American flag only, it is moved to the left shoulder. Right ? My tailor probably knows but you guys are such detail oriented, I wanted to ask here. Anybody with nylon flight jacket pics that give ' correct ' examples of command and squadron patch placement ?

 

[SteveZ]

DOES THIS SOUND CORRECT ?

• The U.S. Code does not address the positioning of the flag patch. It is appropriate to wear an American flag patch on the left or right sleeve. When worn on the left sleeve, the union would appear towards the front and the stripes would run horizontally toward the back. When worn on the right sleeve, it is considered proper to reverse the design so that the union is at the observer's right to suggest that the flag is flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward.

 

[Deacon211]

Yes that sounds correct.

However, I don't ever recall seeing a flight suit with a flag on the right shoulder. The Army tends to wear the flag on the right if a flag is worn. In that case, they usually get the reverse flag, though police seem to generally ignore that convention. I gathered that has to do with wearing your division patch on a different shoulder if you served in combat (to be honest, I'm not all that familiar with Army traditions).

The Air Force seemed to follow one of a couple of general trends.

1. Squadron patch on right sleeve.

2. Wing patch on right sleeve (don't know why this replaces the sqdn patch unless they have wing jobs but are attached to a squadron for flying.

3. Squadron patch on right sleeve and Wing on left.

4. I've seen aircraft patches on the right sleeve as well.

Any of these that have a single patch on the right sleeve may have a flag on the left. Or they may not, AFAIK flags were/are not required on the uniform and I think we're worn mostly when you didn't have something of a more personal affiliation there. I've also seen Weapons School patches on the left sleeve instead of the flag in the same way that the Top Gun patch is worn in the Navy.

Last two things. First, I get the impression that flags were not commonly worn on the flight suit before the 1970s. I just don't recall seeing them in pics of VN era pilots or before. Second, I think wartime era jackets and also Guard jackets were probably worn with a little more "latitude" than regular AF units as far as patches are concerned. I also think that jackets tend to be less rigid in their conformity. If you just came back from VN and joined the Guard, you probably weren't tearing your war patches off your jacket. You were probably adding a patch on whatever sleeve you had free.

Having said all that, you could always try to find some pics of your old unit either on line or by contacting the ANG. That way you could get a feeling for what was the norm back then or copy a specific jacket.



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[Bigger Don]

Hi fellahs,

Im in the process of putting together a nylon flight jacket that I wore in the AF. It will be the CWU MA2 type in sage green color. I am collecting a few patches to be sewn on the garment. Ive located most of them but the single most important one I have not located as of yet. It was the first duty assignment I received when out of boot camp. I guess my first duty posting was the most memorable to me.

The patch Im searching for is the 4787th AIR BASE GROUP @ DULUTH MN. ( AEROSPACE DEFENSE COMMAND , 23rd NORAD REGION SECTOR ) It was the old fighter defense command of the USAF. The active units were flying the F-106 Delta Dart in the old alert huts. There was a MINN. AIR NATIONAL GUARD UNIT at the the far end of the field that was flying the F-101 VooDoo 2 seat version. ( watching those babies take of at night with both cans lit was a real treat !

If anyone runs across one of the group patches Im looking for, give me a shout !

Try looking for it under "TAC" Tactical Air Command. The group may have been re-aligned.

I was stationed at Grand Forks in the early-mid 70's. BUFFs and 135s can get boring to watch, but was lucky enough to witness the F15 time-to-climb sessions. roAR...bang...zoom...rise...fold...dip...GONE!

 

[SteveZ]

Maybe I should go into a bit more detail. Heres the poop...................

My original jacket was an MA 1 type that I still had and outgrew after all these years and was full of holes and the name tag were in bad shape. I decided to upgrade the MA1 jacket to the CWU 36 type. ( the 36P NOMEX type I really didnt need because the price is very high ) However, the type 36 nylon jacket I bought is beautiful and it was a new purchase at a bargain basement price for Xmas. 55 bucks with free shipping aint bad for a knock around coat to show off my USAF service.

My original MA1 had the US AIR FORCE script tag on the front left breast. I thought that this coat looked much cooler over the M65 type overcoats you got issued from boot camp. I never bothered with the fancy Air Force command, Division and group badges we were allowed to attach if we desired. We never wore the American flag back then but I wanted to add it to the coat to ' show the colors '. The division patch will be on the left shoulder which was correct at the time. So I'll add a reversed flag on the right shoulder.

NOTE * Actually, when I first enlisted , I thought all the patches were really slick but in those days you were tagged as a ' gung ho lifer ' and friendly teased if you added more than was required on apparel. Some of the senior vets here might understand my meaning here.

Now Im searching for the appropriate tags and patches that I once declined to have. Im proud to have served and regret frequently to this day that I didnt stay active until the 20 years was reached. Ive yet to find my old support group patch as of yet but there will be a spot on the jacket for it if I do.

This is why Im asking all these silly questions about proper flight jacket appearance and morale patch placement. I dont think that if something was attached or positioned incorrectly to my coat that it will start a fight at the local diner where active military personnel frequent in uniform. Way too old at 65 to get into squables with younger kids.

Sometimes I still salute officers in uniform by accident to this day. ( force of habit I guess ) LOL !!

Deac, your a Godsend as usual with thoughtful insight and wisdom.

 

[SteveZ]

This is an MA1 example from my 1970 to 1980 Air Force days. My finished CWU 36 will be pretty close to this example. Some guys even had their name tag on the right breast just like a work fatigues. Just wanted to add the colors to the right shoulder of the jacket.

 

[Deacon211]

Thanks Steve. That will be a cool looking jacket. I always liked the 50s through 70s AF jackets with the name tapes.

Very Steve Canyon!


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[SteveZ]

You know what ? Its an easy switch to move the flag patch to the left shoulder and the division patch to the right shoulder. I dont think anybody will break out the regulation book at the coffee shop to make sure Im right. I think Deac is right. Army wore the flag on the right shoulder. When Im done with the jacket, I will take a pic and post it. SZ

 

[SteveZ]

Been a long time since I saw that character in the Sunday paper ! LOL. Thanks Deac !!

 

[SteveZ]

Other than still searching for my old USAF unit morale patch, another difficult job was sourcing the old style sew on US AIR FORCE script name tag. Located an original from an E Bay seller that was still new and unused. Ten bucks wasnt bad since their getting rather scarce these days. All I needed was one !

On the other hand, finding a vendor that could custom make the old style LAST NAME on the royal blue cloth tape with silver thread was a bit tougher if you dont know where to look on the web. Hot digity dog I found a vendor in Illinois that can still make the old style USAF name tags. ( I found plenty of sources that can make the new CAMO type name tags though for the new uniforms )

Im moving the flag to the left shoulder and ordered another patch flag for that. Not going to use the reverse flag after all on the right shoulder.

 

[SteveZ]

UPDATE, Got my CWU 36P delivered and it was the exact color I was looking for. However, it wasnt the lite weight coat I wanted. It had the heavy liner inside like the 45P coat and was too short. So im sending that one back as a new return.

I found a company that had the same SAGE GREEN color in a satin look nylon like the first jacket. Im thrilled that I can get it in an extra tall size which was difficult for me to find. It is a true 36P light weight coat for milder weather. I even called the company customer assistance to verify the color and size specs. ( I have enough cold weather jackets in leather for the cold. USN G1 and a USAF A2 )

If you have to ask about the vendor, GIBSON AND BARNES in California had what I wanted. ( We'll see when the coat arrives ) CWU 36P light weight flight jacket. Sage Green, XXL Tall.

 

[SteveZ]

Heres the Gibson and Barnes Jacket. I gotta wait up to a month for it but it should be worth it. Merry Xmas to all my TFL buddies. You guys are the greatest !

( CLICK ON PICTURE FOR CLOSE UP )

 

[SteveZ]

UPDATE, Gibson and Barnes sent me a message that my jacket could be delayed up to 10 weeks. Apparently my size is on back order from the factory. I might just have to give them a call after Xmas and amend the order to another flight jacket they also sell in my size. Its the MA1 jacket in Sage Green, 2XLT size. If their back ordered on that with an extended wait, I just might have to cancel the order altogether and shop for my size elsewhere. Heres the Gibson and Barnes MA1 below.

 

[SteveZ]

Heres a better shot of my second choice.

 

[SteveZ]

Update; Looks like the Gibson and Barnes folks cannot produce either coat for 8 to 10 weeks. They make the CWU 36 and 45 coat and a few select others in their factory but their customer service informed me on the phone that the MA1 and some other jackets are actually ' ALPHA's. ' Because of the Xmas season, most of the in house stock was sold. So I elected to cancel the order and look elsewhere.

Think I found an after Xmas bargain on the web. It will be an MA 1 jacket in sage green. We'll see how the sizing and fit goes. Its a decent coat too. Learned a lot here in the ' Lounge.'

BTW, have you guys noticed how everybody selling garments on the web has a different sizing chart for their jackets ? Hokey smoke ! Talk about confusion ! Wouldn't it be nice if all the garment makers agreed on a SINGLE system of apparel sizing ?

Regards, Steve

 

[El Marro]

Update; Looks like the Gibson and Barnes folks cannot produce either coat for 8 to 10 weeks. They make the CWU 36 and 45 coat and a few select others in their factory but their customer service informed me on the phone that the MA1 and some other jackets are actually ' ALPHA's. ' Because of the Xmas season, most of the in house stock was sold. So I elected to cancel the order and look elsewhere.

Think I found an after Xmas bargain on the web. It will be an MA 1 jacket in sage green. We'll see how the sizing and fit goes. Its a decent coat too. Learned a lot here in the ' Lounge.'

BTW, have you guys noticed how everybody selling garments on the web has a different sizing chart for their jackets ? Hokey smoke ! Talk about confusion ! Wouldn't it be nice if all the garment makers agreed on a SINGLE system of apparel sizing ?

Regards, Steve

I completely agree with your point about sizing. The most frustrating for me are the manufacturers or sellers who post no sizing info at all. In many cases I have found that the best size and fit information is right here on the lounge.

 

[SteveZ]

The MA1 jacket I ordered took quite awhile to get my size figured out. A leather G1 and A2 jacket is a 2XLT in my size. Their not too tight but on the other hand, their not loose either. Im also keeping in mind that the leather jackets also have a thin liner inside. The leather itself is the body warmer.

However, Ive never ordered a nylon jacket before and I realize that they have light and heavy insulation inside. ( A CWU 36 and 45 flight jacket are excellent examples. )

I looked at every example of sizing charts I could find on the web and 90 % of them recommended a 3 EXTRA LARGE size. The jacket Im ordering has some insulation in it so it makes common sense that it will require a bit larger size then the leather jackets I own. My wife suggested going down to a department store and start trying on their brand of MA1 patterned jackets. ( I think most are ROTHCO brand ) Come to think of it, Rothco is owned by Alpha ? If so, even their sizing between them is not the same.

I'm 6 ft -1 in height, weight about 260, have a 50 inch chest, average a 42 to 44 waist and a bit of a gut. ( collateral damage from marrying a beautiful gal 35 years ago that could really cook ! ) I dont need a tight fit jacket like a fighter pilot. The ALPHA INDUSTRIES sizing chart, which I thought was pretty good, says if I want a MA1 thats a bit looser, go with the 3X. They do not offer the MA1 in a 2XLT size which could be too tight anyway.

Most of the better jacket apparel sites that have found on the web with decent sizing charts say Im a 3X size. Ive ordered one but I can always return it and exchange it.

I humbly ask for your opinions from an ex USAF air crewman . MANY THANKS TO MY TFL BUDDIES !!

 

[SteveZ]

UPDATE : Talk about bad luck. The next vendor informed me that he too was back ordered on my size and it might be a month before I received my jacket. So I cancelled the order and started to search the web again. I did find an outfit out west that was offering ALPHA MA1s at a reasonable price and on sale called the SKYMASTER. My wife liked it because she thought the bright orange inside linerred MA1 like my original was ugly and I really didn't have to have that.

So I ordered it last week and it arrived last evening. Whew ! The fit was perfect. The sage green color was and vinyl quality was better than I expected and it was light weight like I wanted without the CWU 45 heavy insulation like the last jacket I had to return. If you have to ask, Im a 3XL size with and wanted a slightly loose fit. A 2XL would have fit but it would have been a bit too short for my taste and a smidge snug.

The ***ALPHA *** sizing chart was spot on their recommended jacket size for my frame. This sizing system asked for height, weight, snug to loose desired fit , general body shape and your age. *** NOTE *** this sizing chart may not apply to other brands of apparel from other companies. What is a LARGE in one vendors size might be a TWO or THREE EXTRA LARGE in another imported garment. That's why the garment industry has to agree on a single UNIVERSAL SIZING CHART in INCHES or METRIC. **** LONG OVERDUE FOR OUR WEB BASED COMMERCE ****

I wanted a light windbreaker type coat that I could wear more days of the season and attach my US AIR FORCE insignia on it like my original coat I wore over 40 years ago with a few extra patches that I managed to locate over the months. IE; Command, Division, US FLAG , US AIR FORCE script tag and my LAST NAME stitched on the same blue cloth tape used so many years ago. ( still haven't found the Support Group patch however )

Well, I've spoke my piece everyone. Pictures will be next. SteveZ

 

[SteveZ]

Ah Oh !! Didnt expect this.

Wife likes the new MA1 so much that she doesnt want me to sew anything on it at all. No name tags, no patches, no nothing ! She says its too pretty and I should wear it as a new windbreaker to replace a couple of older ones Ive had for years. ( non military type jackets )

Now Ive ordered a ' cheapie ' jacket to adorn with all my patches and stuff.

Like I said, didnt figure on this but at least I got spouse permission to order another coat ! LOL !