Shelf Purchase or Custom?

[M6Classic]

So, one question I would ask those more knowledgeable than myself is whether there is some element (or group of elements) of construction that might reasonably be said to distinguish "real" hats from "hat-like objects."

The one element that I, personally, think distinguishes a real hat is that it actually fits your own actual head...not too tight and not too loose...in such a way that it is comfortable yet will not blow off in a stiff breeze.

Buzz

 

[gtdean48]

...
So, one question I would ask those more knowledgeable than myself is whether there is some element (or group of elements) of construction that might reasonably be said to distinguish "real" hats from "hat-like objects."

For me, it starts with size = real hats are a specific size, 7 1/2 or 7 5/8 & shape Long Oval, eXtra Long Oval. Now factory made hats from Stetson don't come Long Oval anymore but do come is specific size. Hat-like objects would be the Medium, Large, X-Large types.
I do have an old Adam Corral 101 that has X-Large, 7 1/2 - 7 5/8 tag in it. It is a basic, inexpensive fur felt western but is on the borderline between real hat & hat-like object.

 

[AlterEgo]

Off-the-shelf hats versus custom-made versus vintage, provided that they all fit your head, boils down to an issue of value.

First off, to be fair, you must compare hats of the same basic quality category, i.e., today's best, yesteryear's best, and current top-end custom. Price IS NOT and indicator of quality.

While you should definitely avoid wool felt, realize that fur felt covers a wide swath, which ranges from, lowest to best, hutch-bred rabbits to a mixture of hutch and wild hares to all-wild hare to a mixture of rabbit and beaver to all beaver.

Fairly new to the scene are felts constructed with cashmere and kangaroo fur blended in. What's next--human hair hats? Many of these novel exotic blends feel wonderful but often contain some wool; if so, fuhgeddaboudit.

Then there's fur felt made from nutria, a huge South American rodent not known for its sense of humor, and though this fur felt has been around a long time, I've never possessed such a hat. It feels a lot like beaver, and is said to be just as durable.

Never having owned a hat in one of these newer fur mixtures or of nutria, I'll set those aside for purposes of this discussion.

Today's best hats include:

Akubras, all made of a blend of wild and captive rabbits. The very good standard quality fur felt comes in three versions: Imperial, found in most of its hats, such as the Snowy River, Campdraft, and Stylemaster; Superfine, like the military Slouch; and the soft felt from which the Sydney (AKA Fedora) is made. These run from around $90 to $140. The even-better Heritage Collection hats, like the Federation IV Deluxe and Banjo Patterson, are made of a thicker, denser fur felt with more wild content than in the "lesser" Akubras, and this upper line features a softer, wider, reeded roan leather sweatband, as well. They are in the $150 to $200 bracket.

The upper-end Borsas, such as the Allesandro, pure fur felt; the Como, a blend of rabbit and beaver fur; and the Ultimo, 100% beaver fur; are all very fine hats. They range from $300 to $700, more for limited edition hats.

The Beaver Brand's 100% beaver hats, not the others, are quite good. At last check they were $400+.

A very few Stetsons, like the pure beaver fur felt Pinnacle, 'round-about $400, are in this today's-best category.

A notch below these are upper-tier Biltmores, such as the Rosellini Luauro and Tyrolean, $150 to $200; and some Chrystys, like the Bowler, $250 to $300, and Foldaway, $150 to $200, though Chrystys' quality is notoriously inconsistent.

Among the best custom hat makers these days are Art Fawcett--if you can imagine it, he'll make it, starting at around $300--Gus Miller, and Steve Delko, maker of the Adventurebuilt, now nearly $700.

The very best vintage hats, generally those made before 1960, are truly outstanding. While today's custom makers can fashion a hat with equivalent skill and care, even the best beaver fur currently available is not up to par with yesteryear's finest, so that's why the oldies are even better. Of course, finding such a vintage hat in your size, preferred color, and in excellent condition will usually cost a fortune if you're lucky enough to land one. However, there are the rare instances of stumbling across a truly collectible vintage on the cheap from an Epsilon-Minus Semi-Moron.

OK, MadDawg, with all that said, it's crystal clear why Akubra's are so popular: They are by far the best hat value.

You say you are new to the hat world, which I assume you mean that you are itching to buy a fedora but have not done so yet. I applaud you for doing your research first.

For your first fedora, I would strongly recommend an Akubra. Get an open crown one--the kind that you fashion the crown yourself--because in fiddling with it, you will discover things about fur felt, crown height and taper, brim width, sweatbands, and hatbands that would take years to learn any other way, AND the hat will, in fact, be "custom." Some day when you fork over big money for a true custom, you'll know exactly how to communicate with the maker in a way that will ensure you'll be delighted with the outcome.

Consider the Sydney (AKA Fedora), a classic fedora shape; the Fed IV Standard or Deluxe or Adventurer, all three Indiana Jones' profiles; or the Squatter or Bushman, wider-brimmed fedoras with a bit of outback flair yet still fairly conservative. There are others, too. Just be aware that not all Akubra hats are on its own web site, as they make hats exclusively for certain vendors. Check Everything Australian and The Hattery Down Under, plus David Morgan here in the US.

Don't worry about "hurting" an Akubra; that's virtually imposible. If you don't like the way the bash looks, just wear it in the rain, and re-dent it as many times as it takes to get it like you want. Or change the bash purely for the sake of variety. By purchasing an open-Crown Akubra fedora as your first hat, you will quickly ramp up the chapeau learning curve.

Warning: Hats are addictive. Believe me, this will be only the first of many hats; I have 67! I wish someone knowledgable would have had this discussion with me before I got hooked, so I hope this helps.

 

[daizawaguy]

Warning: Hats are addictive. Believe me, this will be only the first of many hats; I have 67! I wish someone knowledgable would have had this discussion with me before I got hooked, so I hope this helps.

What a great first post! 67!!?? Well snap away Sir, we are all waiting for the photos! 67 before your first post!? Think you have set a record somehow...:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Dundee]

Your Akubra Squatter should arive next week. It was shipped by post yesterday morning. It sounds as if you asked a question to which many of us needed the very good advise given.

 

[jazzncocktails]

Allow me to word it differently...what is it that is going to be worth me doubling my price for a custom made hat?

MD, I can't add a whole lot to what has been said by others, but here's my experience:

1. absolute newbie: rushed out to Village Hat Shop and spent $300 on two modern Stetsons. One (the Saxon) I wear once or twice a year, the other (the Chatham) not at all. Probably wore the Chatham 6-7 times total.

2. learning the ropes: bought two Akubras from Hats Direct: A Fed IV and a Campdraft. Both great hats, far better in my opinion than the Stetsons if only for their "bashability." But the lack of taper in the crown and broader brims help, too, as does the generally better workmanship. Those are my "workhorse" hats to be worn in inclement weather or if I plan to sweat.

3. exploring vintage: have discovered a few vintage fedoras at flea markets; two in particular (a Resistol and a Stetson, both from the late 50s/early 60s) are fine hats and get occasional wear. Paid $30 for the Resistol and $40 for the Stetson, and each is worth far more.

4. informed buyer: I have two custom hats from Art Fawcett. Had I only discovered these sooner, I would have saved myself a great deal of $$$. I wear them almost exclusively now. They fit perfectly--no need for padding, as in every other hat I mention above. The felt is beautiful; the lightweight felt is great for warm weather, the standard felt even better. The ribbons are beautiful and, as someone said above, professionally done--no tacking showing through. And these are hats Mr. Fawcett and I built together (my suggestions/wishes, his talent and vision). You won't get any of those things from a hat off the shelf.

My custom hats now get 90% of "head time." Have a couple of work hats handy, but go for the custom hats.
Have fun,
Steve

 

[AlterEgo]

Daizawaguy,

"Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterEgo
Warning: Hats are addictive. Believe me, this will be only the first of many hats; I have 67! I wish someone knowledgable would have had this discussion with me before I got hooked, so I hope this helps.


What a great first post! 67!!?? Well snap away Sir, we are all waiting for the photos! 67 before your first post!? Think you have set a record somehow."

Actually, that 67 includes all, and I mean ALL my headgear: hats, flat caps (ivies, newsboys, longshoremen), ball caps, visors, berets, watch caps, a grungy railroad cap I wear for house painting and changing the oil, a couple of US Navy sailor hats--I wore them turned down like Gilligan when I was a kid at the beach, not realizing the preciousness of one's being granddad's original-issue WW I wog--one pith helmet, and even a ridiculous turquoise-striped Tam from my first job at Wendy's.

For better or worse, I just don't throw things away until they begin to stink. So far, none of my hats smell that bad!

 

[tonyb]

So, one question I would ask those more knowledgeable than myself is whether there is some element (or group of elements) of construction that might reasonably be said to distinguish "real" hats from "hat-like objects."

I wouldn't go so far as to deny essential hatness to even a cheap wool fedora-styled lid with a cloth sweatband, but I think I get your drift.

There are some quite nice hats rolling out of the large hat factories these days -- more than there were just a short while ago, I'd say. We now have all-beaver offerings from at least a few makers, and they come in some styles that more appeal to me than what was available not so long ago. The problem, as I see it, is that they just plain cost too much. They're priced at least as high as many all-beaver customs, and often even higher. For that reason, they aren't the best value.

At the other end are the disposable pieces of junk. I don't fault a hat retailer for offering hats that retail for 35 or 40 bucks, because they can sell them and they have bills to pay. But I would hope the retailers find kind and polite ways to tell the buyers that what they're getting is just a step above a Halloween costume and that they shouldn't expect them to last long.

Dead giveaways? Cheap sweatbands, either cloth (which isn't necessarily a negative, but usually is) or "bonded" leather, which is sorta the particleboard of leather. Wool bodies, or really poorly finished rabbit fur ones. (This is easier to judge by feel than look.) Cheap ribbon (stiff and shiny, as opposed to the good stuff, which is soft and "sheeny") and quick-and-dirty ribbon work. Plainly visible stitches are a bad sign, especially when they're any distance to speak of from the edge of the ribbon. A custom hatter might take an hour or more crafting and stitching down a band and bow, and he will almost undoubtedly use high-quality ribbon; the mass-producers simply will not do that.

Truth is, the best materials commonly available do indeed cost quite a bit more than the cheap materials. This is certainly true as a matter of percentages -- an all-beaver body costs twice what a rabbit one does; a 2-inch wide vegetable-tanned sheepskin sweatband costs, oh, five or six times as much as a 1 1/2-inch wide bonded leather one does. These differences make a big difference when you're making thousands of hats. But the dollar amount difference per hat is really rather small -- much smaller than the difference in retail price might lead a person to think. Custom hatters prefer to use the best materials they can get (within reason, of course) because it takes as much or more work to fashion a hat from lesser materials than the good stuff, and the difference in the cost of materials just doesn't justify using the cheap stuff.

 

[johnnycanuck]

Ok I think I actually have something to add here.

I have a collection of Akubra hats. The main advantage is you find out what style of hat you wear the most. I still bought two Art Fedoras before I realized I wear my outback style more then any other hat in my collection. So my last Art was a western crossover. Again pointing out Art can make whatever you want.

Next point that has not been mentioned here yet is the "conformer". Art uses this to make the hat fits your head. Art mails it out to you, you fit it on your head and mail it back. Adventurebilt does not do this. Now I happen to fit a 7 3/8 LO and adventurebilt makes LO so I ordered one form him. Penman hats does not use a conformer or make LO hats so to me it looses the custom made appeal.

I guess the last justification for a custom built is servicing. Yes I know you can get any hat serviced but spending $100 to service a $100 hat....? really? and you can change the look with a different ribbon, bound edge, trimming the brim smaller. You know what I mean.

That's my story.
Johnny

 

[tonyb]

I guess the last justification for a custom built is servicing. Yes I know you can get any hat serviced but spending $100 to service a $100 hat....? really? and you can change the look with a different ribbon, bound edge, trimming the brim smaller. You know what I mean.

Very good point, Johnny.

 

[cybergentleman]

conformers

...Next point that has not been mentioned here yet is the "conformer". Art uses this to make the hat fits your head. Art mails it out to you, you fit it on your head and mail it back. Adventurebilt does not do this. Now I happen to fit a 7 3/8 LO and adventurebilt makes LO so I ordered one form him. Penman hats does not use a conformer or make LO hats so to me it looses the custom made appeal.

i figured that most if not all custom makers use a conformer of some kind- that is a great piece of info.

and a heads up for buyers with unusual craniums!

thanks

 

[Brent Hutto]

I think we need two different terms for "custom hats" that are built in a standard shape to a numerical size and "custom hats" that are actually built to match the shape of ones head. In fact, I don't think a generic Long Oval 7-5/8 or whatever is really "custom" at all. For my part, fitting my head perfectly is the #1 reason (by far) to have a hat "custom" made.

Then again I'm not as impressed by brand names, unique ribbons and in-group cachet as some folks. And my head is probably harder to fit than some. But still, if I'm going to settle for something that will eventually sorta fit pretty good once I've worn it for a few months I'd be hard pressed to pay "custom" prices.

Friend Art is looking better all the time...shhhhhhhh

 

[johnnycanuck]

I feel compelled to note the only other hat company on the internet I have found that does the mail order conformer, other then Art, is http://www.jaxonbilthats.com/ With that siad I have no personal experience with this company and have found very little mention of it on the lounge. Although what little that has been said has been positive.
Johnny

 

[MadDawg]

Wow! What great responses. It is amazing how many variables people come up with to arrive at the same answer. I enjoy watching the feed, because my story of hats is very similar to the discoveries all of you are mentioning. I am obsesive compulsive when it comes to my hobbies and it has shown through in my fedora stage. I have only been wearing these style hats for about 6 months (lifelong ballcap wearer). I started with 2 wool felts just to get a feel for the style, then purchased an Adam from a fellow lounger as my first fur and was AMAZED at the difference. The wools immediately went to ebay!! I then picked up a Stetson Downs at an outlet and it has become my everyday wear.

After seeing all the acclaim for Akubra's, I had to see for myself, so again I purchased one from a fellow Lounger and am waiting for it to arrive now. It will probably be my all purpose (rain or shine) hat as it seems to have GREAT reveiws about durability in all elements.

To complete my obsesive side, I just made my deposit with Art this morning. I love the idea of a custom hat and after reading nothing but GREAT reviews for Art (trust me, I TRIED to find a negative comment) I just gotta see what its all about. My hope is that I get a treasure that my kids can look at when I am long gone and reflect on "good ole dad."

Of course, my fear is that my personality is leading me to an expensive place and once I go Art, that will set the bar for all others!! Hopefully, once I receive the Art-work, I will be satisfied with having 2 everyday wears and the collectors piece and will be happy with status quo, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it!! lol

 

[Viper Man]

...Of course, my fear is that my personality is leading me to an expensive place and once I go Art, that will set the bar for all others!! Hopefully, once I receive the Art-work, I will be satisfied with having 2 everyday wears and the collectors piece and will be happy with status quo, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it!! lol

Your fear is not unfounded. If I could afford to do it, I'd buy a hat from Art in every color.

 

[kaosharper1]

Your fear is not unfounded. If I could afford to do it, I'd buy a hat from Art in every color.

And style!

 

[Art Fawcett]

I think we need two different terms for "custom hats" that are built in a standard shape to a numerical size and "custom hats" that are actually built to match the shape of ones head. In fact, I don't think a generic Long Oval 7-5/8 or whatever is really "custom" at all. For my part, fitting my head perfectly is the #1 reason (by far) to have a hat "custom" made.

Then again I'm not as impressed by brand names, unique ribbons and in-group cachet as some folks. And my head is probably harder to fit than some. But still, if I'm going to settle for something that will eventually sorta fit pretty good once I've worn it for a few months I'd be hard pressed to pay "custom" prices.

Friend Art is looking better all the time...shhhhhhhh

Brent, the word you are looking for is "bespoke". I'm a bespoke hatter, not a custom. I only build to your head, not a generic size. The best compliment I think I ever received was when a client put his hat on for the first time and asked me how I "broke it in" already.

 

[Brent Hutto]

Brent, the word you are looking for is "bespoke". I'm a bespoke hatter, not a custom. I only build to your head, not a generic size. The best compliment I think I ever received was when a client put his hat on for the first time and asked me how I "broke it in" already.

Bespoke. Don't know why I didn't think of that. It's what they call it in suits and shoes. Now I know what I need!

Oh, and you could tell him that Conformer thing was the "Automatic Breaker Inner".

 

[Viper Man]

And style!

And How!