The Great MacArthur Debate/Discussion

[Diamondback]

Okay, folks, by popular demand, I'm opening up the discussion on of of the most colorful, controversial military icons of the Golden Age. I'll weigh in with my own research and opinions later, after a few of you've had your say.

Because of the controversial nature of this subject, I do believe we need some ground-rules up front:

1. Because this is a free country, we all have the right to our own opinions, and therefore disagreement of opinion should be conducted with respect to the other person. If I see a flame-war starting, I will ask a Bartender to lock things down myself.

2. I must ask everyone to remember that personalities like MacArthur tend to be very polarizing, it's either "love 'em or hate 'em", with no middle ground. So if someone takes a potshot, I'm asking whoever's on the receiving end not to return fire.

Okay, kids. The sandbox is open, have fun!

First, some notes on his uniform: I've noticed a lot of GHQ-SWPA/GHQ-FECOM officers' shirts had a distinctive rectangular flap over the pockets, no scallop or corner cut, ad the only other time I've seen this is on George C. Scott's khaki uniform during the air-raid scene in Patton--and haven't seen it available in repro form from anybody. To my eye, the white Philippine dress uniform coat looks identical to the standard Army prewar green except color. (Then again, I'm just barely starting to pick up detail cues about the finer points of vintage styling, so I'm potentially missing a lot of subtle things.)

 

[Martinis at 8]

My main disappointment with MacArthur stems from his flight from the Phillipines.

Contrast his exit with that of those who remained and refused the surrender order. CPT Russell Volckmann (West Point class of 1934) refused the surrender order and disappeared into the Phillipine jungles where he later raised a 30,000 man guerilla force of Filipinos that continued to wage war against Japan.

If Mac was a true warrior he would have stayed to fight. He obviously slept thru the lecture at West Point on Thermopylae. As a minium, if he did not intend to fight like a warrior, then he should have walked hand-in-hand with Gen. "Skinny" Wainwright from Bataan to the prison camps with the rest of his soldiers instead of abandoning them.

Does not a captain go down with his ship? In this case, the ship's captain was the first one to get into the life boat (while leaving everyone else to sink with the ship).

M8

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

I don't fault him for not staying. It usually more advantagious for a general to escape and fight another day than stay and fight an unwinable battle. Paulus didn't accomplish much by being captured by the Russians at Stalingrad, Rommel wouldn't have either had be been captured in Africa instead of gotten away.

The problem with Mac is that he didn't quite understand that Truman was the guy giving the ultimate orders to the US military, not himself.

 

[carebear]

My main disappointment with MacArthur stems from his flight from the Phillipines.

Does not a captain go down with his ship? In this case, the ship's captain was the first one to get into the life boat (while leaving everyone else to sink with the ship).

The Japanese leadership clung to that concept of honor at Midway which meant that not only did the Japanese lose the 4 carriers but also many of their best Captains and Admirals.

Far better to take your ability and knowledge off the field and come back and win the war.

There's no reason why a theatre commander should necessarily get himself captured in one small part of the theatre, that's a waste. I do have several problems with the conduct of the defense, but not with him leaving.

I agree his big failing was his refusal to accept that in the end he was not the Commander in Chief and the army was given him to lead, not to own.

 

[cookie]

Dougout Doug

My main disappointment with MacArthur stems from his flight from the Phillipines.

Contrast his exit with that of those who remained and refused the surrender order. CPT Russell Volckmann (West Point class of 1934) refused the surrender order and disappeared into the Phillipine jungles where he later raised a 30,000 man guerilla force of Filipinos that continued to wage war against Japan.

If Mac was a true warrior he would have stayed to fight. He obviously slept thru the lecture at West Point on Thermopylae. As a minium, if he did not intend to fight like a warrior, then he should have walked hand-in-hand with Gen. "Skinny" Wainwright from Bataan to the prison camps with the rest of his soldiers instead of abandoning them.

Does not a captain go down with his ship? In this case, the ship's captain was the first one to get into the life boat (while leaving everyone else to sink with the ship).

M8

It is conservatively estimated that his tactical brilliance in the encirclement of the finest Japanese troops (the "wither on the vine" strategy) saved 145,000 Allied lives - many of them who would have been Aussies (eg Rabaul had 100,000 crack troops encircled). 'Nuff said about leaving Corregidor. What would the publicity value have been to the Japs from his incarceration and humiliation?

 

[52Styleline]

I seem to remember that he was given a direct order to evacuate Corrigidor.

I'm not a particular fan of his self promotion, but his bravery can't be questioned. In WWI he was the youngest General in the US Army and was the only one of his rank who led his troops into battle, unarmed yet. He was up for the Congressional Medal of Honor in WWI but his penchant for breaking rules irritated some of his senior officers and he had to settle for a lesser award.

Brave man, but complex. Eisenhower said he studied dramatics under MacArthur.

 

[Martinis at 8]

I don't fault him for not staying. It usually more advantagious for a general to escape and fight another day than stay and fight an unwinable battle.

He abandoned his men. This is a leadership failure.

Far better to take your ability and knowledge off the field and come back and win the war.

You are assuming that there were not others capable of doing the job better than he.

It is conservatively estimated that his tactical brilliance in the encirclement of the finest Japanese troops (the "wither on the vine" strategy) saved 145,000 Allied lives - many of them who would have been Aussies (eg Rabaul had 100,000 crack troops encircled). 'Nuff said about leaving Corregidor. What would the publicity value have been to the Japs from his incarceration and humiliation?

Like the previous post, you are assuming that there were not others capable of doing the job better than he, or at least equal.

Maybe the publicity would have been positive where it matters most - with the troops, e.g., no surrender, and fighting it out to the end with his men. Ever heard of the Alamo?

I seem to remember that he was given a direct order to evacuate Corrigidor.

Political engineering designed to make it look like he had no choice.

Cheers,

M8

 

[WH1]

The great things he did include the overseeing the creation of the modern nation of Japan. However MacArthur made more mistakes in his conduct of the war in Korea than right decisions, with the exception of Inchon. He repeatedly underestimated his enemy and perhaps his most glaring failure was trusting an incompetent like Ned Almond and splitting his armies in the sweep up to the Yalu. Ultimately he needed to go and Truman was completely in the right.

 

[cookie]

Doug leaves Corregidor in a Boat goes to Aussie and helps win WWII

Like the previous post, you are assuming that there were not others capable of doing the job better than he, or at least equal.

Maybe the publicity would have been positive where it matters most - with the troops, e.g., no surrender, and fighting it out to the end with his men. Ever heard of the Alamo?



Political engineering designed to make it look like he had no choice.

Cheers,

M8[/QUOTE]

Very Harsh - in fact we did have generals but not with the strategic vision and knowledge of Asia like he.

 

[Martinis at 8]

The great things he did include the overseeing the creation of the modern nation of Japan...

On this I agree 100%. This leads up to a theory I have on him and several other "non-warrior" generals.

...Very Harsh - in fact we did have generals but not with the strategic vision and knowledge of Asia like he.

What strategic vision was that? Knowledge of Asia? He had knowledge of the Phillipines - having lived there as an elite Army brat.

M8

 

[Parallel Guy]

His main problem seems to have been that he was a great man who thought he was the only great man. It's a typical case of someone believing his own press.

Truman waited too long. One of the few times in his life that the president seemed to doubt his own actions. Any hint of a general attempting to bully the C of C to start a nuclear war and he should be brought back so fast his head spins.

 

[Martinis at 8]

His main problem seems to have been that he was a great man who thought he was the only great man. It's a typical case of someone believing his own press.

I'll agree with that part.

Truman waited too long. One of the few times in his life that the president seemed to doubt his own actions. Any hint of a general attempting to bully the C of C to start a nuclear war and he should be brought back so fast his head spins.

This part I disagree with. Let's not forget Truman dropped two atomic bombs on Japan.

MacArthur was correct. We should have crossed the Yalu River. By not doing so we allowed the Chinese time to mass on the other side of the border, attack and push us back. If Mac was listened to, Korea would be united and free today. He spoke out as he should have. Just like Shinseki.

M8

 

[Parallel Guy]

I'll agree with that part.




This part I disagree with. Let's not forget Truman dropped two atomic bombs on Japan.

MacArthur was correct. We should have crossed the Yalu River. By not doing so we allowed the Chinese time to mass on the other side of the border, attack and push us back. If Mac was listened to, Korea would be united and free today. He spoke out as he should have. Just like Shinseki.

M8

Oddly enough, I agree with part of your statement as well. I agree 100% that he had a responsibilty to advise the President as too his opinion. He went beyond that, however.

The part I would disagree with is that attacking China would have been a positive step. As much as a single Korea would be a wonderful thing, given it isn't ruled by a dictatorial leader. The time was way too volitile and could have easily led to a 3rd world war. Impossible to say for sure, of course, but I think HST made the best call given the circumstances...and the possible consequences.

 

[dhermann1]

My main objections to MacArthur derive from his actions before the war. He behaved like a total cad to Eisenhower in the Phillipines in the 30's. At one point he made Ike look like a complete fool, by blaming Ike for his own screw ups building the Philippine Army. Also, in 1933 he brutally suppressed the bonus marchers. Again, Ike had to helplessly stand by while MacArthur torched the veterans' tent city, causing one innocent death.
A great military leader, no doubt, but as a man, just a cad.

 

[cookie]

Macarthur

My main objections to MacArthur derive from his actions before the war. He behaved like a total cad to Eisenhower in the Phillipines in the 30's. At one point he made Ike look like a complete fool, by blaming Ike for his own screw ups building the Philippine Army. Also, in 1933 he brutally suppressed the bonus marchers. Again, Ike had to helplessly stand by while MacArthur torched the veterans' tent city, causing one innocent death.
A great military leader, no doubt, but as a man, just a cad.

This is one of the great conundrums of greatness as seen historically - the upsides and downsides. What do you do....get a pencil out and do some math?

 

[Lincsong]

I have mixed feelings about MacArthur. Should he have stayed in the Phillipines?; I say yes. Afterall, the British Royal Family didn't flee to Canada. He could have holed up in Luzon and run the battle from there. The Bonus Marchers??? Well, the Marchers knew that their bonus wasn't going to be paid until a time in the future, what they wanted was immediate payment. Was he right in Korea? Yes. (It is worthwhile to note that both Truman and MacArthur were Freemasons, something that must confound the conspiracy theoristslol )

 

[Martinis at 8]

This is one of the great conundrums of greatness as seen historically - the upsides and downsides. What do you do....get a pencil out and do some math?

No. What we do is identify the true story.

Mac was not a "warrior" general. He was a great "administrator" or "pro-consul" general. His work in reforming Japan was brilliant. We should remember he brought guys in there like Deming, who really instituted the quality aspects of Japanese industry. There were other examples of this in his younger days. For example his revamping of the educational system at West Point was brilliant.

I think Manchester naming him "American Caesar" was quite appropriate, however he was no Alexander fighting type general.

M8

 

[dhermann1]

Diamondback is rubbing his hands and chortling with glee right at this moment, I'm sure. Mac certainly can provoke string emotions. I'm not an expert on his career, but I do know that the British Chief of the Imperial General Staff, General Brooke, thought he was a great strategic general. So, I don't quite understand why he would be called not a fighting general. You mean a fighting general has to be a David Shoup, or a Holland M. Smith, or a Chesty Puller? You're probably right. (heh heh.)

 

[Diamondback]

No, sir, I'm neither rubbing my hands nor chortling. I've just been waiting to let everyone else get a lot of say in, considering everything you all have said, and flagging possible leads to investigate on the next round of analysis and prep-work on my thesis.

I've been sitting this one out so far because of that, and the fact that I'm trying to get a feel for things before I really "rock the boat"--I'm not one to stir up controversy just for its own sake.

I do believe, though, and bear in mind I'll actually "weigh in" later, that the nickel summary would be "deeply-flawed genius."

 

[Martinis at 8]

...You mean a fighting general has to be a David Shoup...

Shoup on Tarawa...man was he a bad ass or what? :eusa_clap:

No but he has to be a leader of troops, by respect not appointment. Mac just never quite fell into that category of "leader".

M8