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The Lords hat

bumphrey hogart

One of the Regulars
Messages
159
Location
cornwall,England
Black tie hat

As far as I'm aware the only hat appropriate for black tie is an homburg, the silk underbrim is a nice touch but kind of unnecessary,especially
seeing as the opportunity for black tie is so much rarer now. Maybe it's a US thing?
 
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10,135
Location
Boston area
As far as I'm aware the only hat appropriate for black tie is an homburg, the silk underbrim is a nice touch but kind of unnecessary,especially
seeing as the opportunity for black tie is so much rarer now. Maybe it's a US thing?

I think it's a "hat person" thing.

I have never seen one, nor have most of us, with the exception of a very few of the most diligent (and revered) hat hunters here. Check a little further back in this thread...

SCz... No, no interior shots where I found that hat.
 

bumphrey hogart

One of the Regulars
Messages
159
Location
cornwall,England
I think it's a "hat person" thing.

I have never seen one, nor have most of us, with the exception of a very few of the most diligent (and revered) hat hunters here. Check a little further back in this thread...

SCz... No, no interior shots where I found that hat.

A little unnecessary don't you think? The inference is I'm not a hat person so what am I doing presuming to have an opinion!
I think you'll find they're so rare because nobody fell for it, otherwise they wouldn't be rare. Putting silk on the underside of an homburgs brim and trying to persuade men they needed 2 homburgs, one for day, another for evening was a clever marketing ploy, but it obviously didn't work otherwise there'd be as many of them around as standard homburgs.
Taking a standard black business suit and putting silk on the lapels and calling it a tuxedo doesn't make it a tuxedo, putting a bit of silk on a fedora and calling it a 'tuxedo hat' doesn't make it one either.
As an aside, being semi-retired I run a little ebay vintage business the basis of which is vintage hats, so I like to think I know a little about them, and anyway I thought this thread was about the lords' hat!
 
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Messages
10,135
Location
Boston area
A little unnecessary don't you think? The inference is I'm not a hat person so what am I doing presuming to have an opinion!
I think you'll find they're so rare because nobody fell for it, otherwise they wouldn't be rare. Putting silk on the underside of an homburgs brim and trying to persuade men they needed 2 homburgs, one for day, another for evening was a clever marketing ploy, but it obviously didn't work otherwise there'd be as many of them around as standard homburgs.
Taking a standard black business suit and putting silk on the lapels and calling it a tuxedo doesn't make it a tuxedo, putting a bit of silk on a fedora and calling it a 'tuxedo hat' doesn't make it one either.
As an aside, being semi-retired I run a little ebay vintage business the basis of which is vintage hats, so I like to think I know a little about them, and anyway I thought this thread was about the lords' hat!

Apologies for any unintended or interpreted negative inference. None meant, my friend! And I thank you for your comments on the "tuxedo" hat.

I only refer to the idiosyncratic nature of "hat people" (in as self-deprecating way as possible), and our fascination with the world of hats.
You are absolutely correct in the assertion that nobody bought the concept, I think. But the resulting rarity of this style is what makes us want one even more.

And, to also concur with your final comment, I don't feel this tuxedo variation on the theme (Lord's Hat) even warrants its own thread. There's simply not enough content.

Just slightly off-topic...


All the best, sir!
Charlie
 

Brad Bowers

I'll Lock Up
Messages
4,187
Gentlemen, I feel I must come to the defense of the Tuxedo hat. If nobody bought it, then why did the style last for at least five or six decades? American hat manufacturers and retailers were offering the Tuxedo hat (yes, known by that name) since at least 1900, and the style was still offered well into the 1950s. It was a legitimate hat for evening wear, with the added convenience of being able to roll it up and stick it in an overcoat pocket - nice way to avoid hat check fees!

Yes, examples are relatively rare today, and sales weren't comparable to the more versatile Homburg, but considering that over the course of those six decades, fewer and fewer American men were wearing black tie in the evening, it's not surprising. Sales of the Tuxedo hat probably follow a similar decline curve as Top hats and perhaps even Derbies over those six decades. Pardon the pun, but I don't buy the argument that "nobody bought it."

Brad
 

howardeye

Practically Family
Messages
569
Location
NW Indiana
I was told by lounge members when I posted this Dobbs Hat that it was a Lords Hat. It is my favorite hat and was made even better when Black Sheep Hat Works installed the wide ostrich leather sweat band and ovalized it to get rid of the dent in the front that was caused from being too tight on the forehead. I would like to have a black one just like it.



 
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bumphrey hogart

One of the Regulars
Messages
159
Location
cornwall,England
Would love to see a top shot of your hat, a lords' hat is simply an homburg without the silk trim on the brim, so it should still have a gutter crease and brim shape just like an homburg but with side 'bashes' like yours, it does look a beautiful hat!
Mr Bowers, it's why I made the point earlier 'it must be a US thing', I'm sure we're all aware of how the tuxedo came about as a less formal jacket to wear to ones' club or at home(a version of a smoking jacket really),originally paired with all the accoutrements of white tie, including the top hat, but slowly becoming less formal with a soft collared shirt, cummerbund,etc,(essentially borrowing a lot from the mess dress of the military,shawl collar for one). Then 'Grizzy' Griswold wore one out in public at the Tuxedo club and the rest is history.
The point is, originally a top hat would have been the only appropriate headwear, then as the dinner jacket became acceptable public wear it collected it's own specific accessories, black tie, cummerbund, french cuffs as opposed to single, etc,etc. During the twenties as these things were agreed upon there was still no real agreement on headwear, it may have been during this period of change from the topper that the 'tuxedo hat' was introduced.
The homburg did become the default black tie choice, being the next most formal hat to the topper, as black tie is the next most formal wear to white tie.
That's not to say the tuxedo hat isn't of historical interest, but I don't think it would be correct with black tie now, any more than a topper would, and really I struggle to imagine it ever being 'correct', I mean people wear matching tartan bow ties and cummerbunds and all kinds of horrors and nobody would consider that correct.
Don't mean to be didactic and apologise in advance if I sound it, but just thought it an interesting point, even though it has nothing to do with the lords'hat!
 

howardeye

Practically Family
Messages
569
Location
NW Indiana
I am sorry but I do not know what you are talking about. I saw a Lords Hat thread so I posted one. As for a tux, this is my tux that I marry and bury people in. This is it! I own many Homburgs also my favorite being a Herbert Johnson from your neck of the woods and derbys also. If I were to wear an outfit like you are talking about I would not wear the Lords Hat. I did see an exact hat like mine in an old ad somewhere when this style came about but it was not a production hat but custom made.

BrHomb1.jpg
 
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Messages
16,315
Location
Maryland
The homburg did become the default black tie choice, being the next most formal hat to the topper, as black tie is the next most formal wear to white tie.

Did the Homburg become acceptable in black tie situations? The Homburg became more formal and you see heads of state wearing them for meetings but did they actually become acceptable for black tie (regarding strick English formality) prior to WII (or after)?

Update:

I looked into this further and it appears the Homburg became acceptable for black tie (unless there are different levels) while white tie is Top Hat only.
 
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moehawk

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,381
Location
Northern California
Here's my Penn-Craft Lords' hat.

24c8e09d878ec8932f26e3cee19e9fbf.jpg
8722abb6213dbcf46ebe57d31a0b23bd.jpg
ed5962d560114fdc5a8b19f7e80aa674.jpg
4b907c790d2dab62cead0b0d5fcb4ca5.jpg
fc5041538c98ee4ed627e86798b45084.jpg
4ac65c07c0b0cfa92fea551df5a8e43a.jpg
6dcbd3ab960d4a255df5898076d85eb9.jpg

The crown is 5 1/4", brim 2 1/4" with curl. Ribbon 2", 120g total weight.
The felt has an amazingly soft hand, and is very shapeable. No moth damage, but there is a thin spot in the back of the hat where the old deep center crease was. Seems odd to me that there would be wear there, but perhaps the previous owner just liked a sharp crease front and back.
Overall a fantastic quality hat, I will certainly buy other Penn-Craft hats should they present themselves.

Sent from thin air using electricity and other wizardry.
 

splintercellsz

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,137
Location
Somewhere in Time
Here's my Penn-Craft Lords' hat.

24c8e09d878ec8932f26e3cee19e9fbf.jpg
8722abb6213dbcf46ebe57d31a0b23bd.jpg
ed5962d560114fdc5a8b19f7e80aa674.jpg
4b907c790d2dab62cead0b0d5fcb4ca5.jpg
fc5041538c98ee4ed627e86798b45084.jpg
4ac65c07c0b0cfa92fea551df5a8e43a.jpg
6dcbd3ab960d4a255df5898076d85eb9.jpg

The crown is 5 1/4", brim 2 1/4" with curl. Ribbon 2", 120g total weight.
The felt has an amazingly soft hand, and is very shapeable. No moth damage, but there is a thin spot in the back of the hat where the old deep center crease was. Seems odd to me that there would be wear there, but perhaps the previous owner just liked a sharp crease front and back.
Overall a fantastic quality hat, I will certainly buy other Penn-Craft hats should they present themselves.

Sent from thin air using electricity and other wizardry.
*drool*
stunning piece

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
 

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