WWI - The war in the air

[Smithy]

Yes this is strictly speaking outside the concrete borders of the Golden Era but we already have a Great War thread on this board and I do know that there are several members who are interested in the subject. It also had an immeasurable impact on the 20s, 30s and initial wartime years as it was the first conflict which was waged in the skies.

Please feel free to discuss any matters of the air war during WWI, be that men, machines, tactics, campaigns, uniforms, flying kit, books, films, docos, etc, etc.

It would be nice to see this as a homage to those exceptionally brave souls who flew in the most dangerous and brutal war in the air.

 

[DNO]

Dangerous and brutal, indeed.

Years ago, before the days of the internet, I acquired a pair of medals for a Canadian officer who was listed in the Army List as being seconded to the RFC. That was all I could find out, for years and years. Recently, however, thanks to the current drive to digitalize records, I was able to find his service record on the UK National Archives website. I was amazed...this fellow joined 15 Squadron in June of 1917 as a pilot of an RE8. He then flew with the same squadron through the truly nasty days of 1917 and early 1918 without a scratch. It wasn't until March of 1918 that the odds caught up with him. (That part I had to discern from going through Henshaw's The Sky Their Battlefield...great resource!) He was apparently downed and rendered unfit for regular service. He served the rest of the war as a flying instructor. All in all, it would seem he was quite the lucky RE8 pilot!

On the other hand, I have a uniform for another Canadian pilot who went missing from a dawn patrol about a month after joining his squadron. In this case he was flying a Nieuport 17 with 29 Squadron and went missing near Passchendaele in November 1917. He spent the rest of the war in a POW camp.

 

[Smithy]

Hi DNO,

My other very big interest is RAF Fighter Command in the Battles of France and Britain, and although these were certainly dangerous to one's wellbeing, what always shocks me with the first air war was just how appallingly dangerous, brutal and nasty it was.

That Canadian officer who flew the Harry Tates and whose medals you have was indeed an exceedingly lucky fellow. The average life expectancy for a reconnaissance pilot during the Arras spring offensive of 1917 was apparently 18 hours - but this was logbook time, so if you remove the training flight time of on average roughly 12 or so hours, a reconnaissance pilot's operational life expectancy during this period was a paltry 6 odd hours, or somewhere around 3 sorties.

Any chance of some photos of the medals and uniform?

 

[DNO]

Nothing special about the medals, just a British War Medal and a Victory...although the ribbons are on the wrong medals. That's how I got them, so I left the ribbons alone. I do have photos if you wish.

I thought I had some photos of the tunic but they seem to be nowhere to be found. I took some photos a few years ago in order to make sure the mothing wasn't getting worse. It had moth holes around the collar, on the bottom of one of the breast pockets and a bit elsewhere. It's an infantry officer's service dress tunic with an RFC brevet. I'll try to dig it out of storage.

On the other hand, I did find some photos of a tunic I obtained at a rural auction last year. This one belonged to a fellow who enlisted in the RAF in 1918 here in Toronto. The RAF had a station in Toronto at the time...'RAF Canada'. Unlike Australia, Canada did not have it's own air service in the First World War and the RFC/RAF did a lot of recruiting. This gentleman joined up in June or so and trained here in Toronto. By the time he got his wings, the war was over.

The end result is that his tunic is spotless...no mothing at all. Unfortunately someone took a liking to his RAF brevet wings and removed them. You can still see the stitching. The tunic, and even the buttons, were made by a tailor here in Toronto. Although the uniform was not supposed to have epaulettes, this one does. The tunic came from the estate of his son, who served in the RCAF in WWII, becoming a Squadron Leader and a DFC winner.



I was lucky to find this one.

 

[Smithy]

That's a stunning tunic DNO and in incredibly good condition. I might be wrong but it looks to be a first pattern RAF 1918 Tropical SD tunic which was stipulated in AWMO 502 to have epaulettes.

Either way it's a corker, shame the wings were removed.

 

[Renault]

There are several of us here at the lounge that do volunteer work here!

http://pioneerflightmuseum.org/index.shtml

 

[Smithy]

There are several of us here at the lounge that do volunteer work here!

http://pioneerflightmuseum.org/index.shtml

Good stuff Renault, you guys must have a hoot helping out around there.

I'm thinking of heading back home to NZ next year to see the Omaka show with Sir Peter Jackson's flying WWI collection

 

[Stearmen]

There are several of us here at the lounge that do volunteer work here!

http://pioneerflightmuseum.org/index.shtml

If it wasn't bad enough, that I was trying to get down to see the USS Texas and the Lone Star Flight Museum, now I need to schedule another day for your collection. Oh well, could be worse!

 

[Smithy]

I thought that many here would not have seen this...

Sir Peter Jackson has recently made a short film for the AWM called "Over the Front" which is a combination of actual aircraft (from his ever growing collection of WWI aircraft) and CGI. It is without doubt the most realistic footage created of WWI air combat.

It is shown across three large screens in a hall at the AWM and although this footage of it is less than perfect it still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. The dogfight towards the end with AFC SE5as and Dr.Is, Albatri, etc is incredible.

[video=youtube;t4i7VQqa5sg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4i7VQqa5sg[/video]

Tantalisingly, I've heard it suggested that this is a test bed for a possible full length WWI aviation film by Sir PJ

 

[Stearmen]

Here are three books on the early years of WWI in the air. Early German Aces of World War 1, Pusher Aces of World War 1, and DH2 Vs Albatros DI/DII. All are published by Osprey. It's amazing how few fighter planes there was during the Fokker Scourge.

 

[Guttersnipe]

Wow, that video from the Australian War Museum is some of the best recreated WWI aerial combat I've seen.

One of the things is usually lost when filmmakers use CGI to recreate planes of this era is that they didn't fly that fast, particularly during close in combat, where they shed speed in order to achieve tighter turning radiuses. However, in the Peter Jackson video, this can clearly be seen, which is great!

If you watch The Red Baron or Flyboys, and then compare those scenes to ones in The Blue Max, which used actual aircraft, this is pretty glaring.

 

[Smithy]

Here are three books on the early years of WWI in the air. Early German Aces of World War 1, Pusher Aces of World War 1, and DH2 Vs Albatros DI/DII. All are published by Osprey. It's amazing how few fighter planes there was during the Fokker Scourge.

Osprey books from all their series are generally excellent Stearmen and always really well priced. I have quite a few and really enjoy them. They're always releasing new titles and have some great authors in their stable.

Wow, that video from the Australian War Museum is some of the best recreated WWI aerial combat I've seen.

One of the things is usually lost when filmmakers use CGI to recreate planes of this era is that they didn't fly that fast, particularly during close in combat, where they shed speed in order to achieve tighter turning radiuses. However, in the Peter Jackson video, this can clearly be seen, which is great!

If you watch The Red Baron or Flyboys, and then compare those scenes to ones in The Blue Max, which used actual aircraft, this is pretty glaring.

Really pleased you liked it Guttersnipe. I was blown away by it and I agree with you 100%, Sir PJ has done a brilliant job of portraying the physics of WWI aircraft flight. The comparatively low speeds are also one of the factors which made WWI air fighting so dangerous - combat usually occurred at very close ranges, especially compared to WWII dogfighting.

Just imagine a feature length film with a big studio budget made in that vein!

 

[Guttersnipe]

Also, as shown in the Peter Jackson short, planes did not typically explode midair because (a) they didn't have pressurized fuel tanks and (b) incendiary and/or explosive ammunition was not universal. Although, fire was still a real danger since the dope used to treat cloth covered wings was flammable.

One really chilling aspect of WWI air combat is that experienced pilots typically tried to maneuver into a firing positions where they could target the cockpit with minimal deflection. Since these were unarmored planes with no protection for the pilot, the most expedient way to shoot them down was by killing or incapacitating the pilot...

...a full length Peter Jackson film on this topic would be AMAZING!

 

[Guttersnipe]

Also, these guys were typically very, very young. For example, when Werner Voss died in 1917, just a few month after his 20th birthday, he was already a seasoned veteran with over a year's areal combat expedience. Before that, he'd served for a year as cavalryman on the eastern front too!

 

[Smithy]

Funny you should mention Voss Guttersnipe as I am currently making a model of his Fokker F.1 (don't mention what colour the cowling was ). His final fight with 56 Sqn on the 23rd September 1917 must be one of the greatest dogfights ever.

 

[Stearmen]

Now here is a really great short feature!

 

[Smithy]

Great video Stearmen! I'm looking at heading back home to NZ for the Omaka show next year.

As a Kiwi I'm really proud how NZ is swiftly becoming one of the leading homes for the preservation of the memory of WWI aviation and that's thanks in no small part to Sir PJ, it's great to see how his collection of flyable WWI aircraft is growing and growing. And you have to hope that as a filmmaker he's got plans to use them in a dedicated WWI film in the future.

Thanks once again for posting that, great stuff!

 

[DNO]

I had no idea that Peter Jackson was so involved in First World War aviation. I've been going through the Omaka museum website. Spectacular collection! Those full sized dioramas are quite stunning.

 

[Stearmen]

Great video Stearmen! I'm looking at heading back home to NZ for the Omaka show next year.

As a Kiwi I'm really proud how NZ is swiftly becoming one of the leading homes for the preservation of the memory of WWI aviation and that's thanks in no small part to Sir PJ, it's great to see how his collection of flyable WWI aircraft is growing and growing. And you have to hope that as a filmmaker he's got plans to use them in a dedicated WWI film in the future.

Thanks once again for posting that, great stuff!

I actually corresponded with him several years ago, when he was more approachable. I brought up the idea of a WWI flying movie, he was dead set against it. He said, they just don't sell, pointing to Fly Boys, which had just come out. Lets hope he changes his mind!

 

[Smithy]

I actually corresponded with him several years ago, when he was more approachable. I brought up the idea of a WWI flying movie, he was dead set against it. He said, they just don't sell, pointing to Fly Boys, which had just come out. Lets hope he changes his mind!

TBH Stearmen he probably has a point even though we'd love to see something like that.

Although what might be a more successful format would be a mini-series, say 6 hour long episodes like "Wings" or "Piece of Cake", something like that could be a more attractive proposition.

I'd love to see something following 56 Sqn RFC/RAF's story or 2 Sqn AFC - he's got the SE5as for it Actually after his work with the AWM for the above film about the AFC, that might be feasible especially if the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) and the AWM or similar bodies got behind it.

Oh well dreams are free aren't they. Although you have to wonder with all those WWI aircraft, that a little part of him must be thinking "I could do something with them"...