Alpha MA-1 Revisited

[AustinTX]

Guys, I'll try this from a different angle. I picked this up on eBay the other day out of curiosity about the Alpha fit regarding "made-in-USA" v. made in China. Et, voila!, it was a better fit than the new one I recently sent back to Alpha Industries. Chest a little narrower (26.25 v. 27 in.); arms a little longer (26 in. v. I can't remember). Just looks better. My question is this: is this surplus, or just a repro? do the three stripes mean jack? or the label numbers? Here it is again (note how handy it becomes if one is shot down behind enemy lines):

 

[Seb Lucas]

Looks like my older civilian USA made one. As has been observed before - the product was better a few years ago, quite apart from the even bigger leap between the real thing and civilian stuff. I had a 2000 made in USA MA1 and it was very well made, better nylon, stitching, etc. The fit of these things is not great for tall thin guys. The new ones in a tall size fit me better.

 

[kowalski]

View attachment 8382

Guys, I'll try this from a different angle. I picked this up on eBay the other day out of curiosity about the Alpha fit regarding "made-in-USA" v. made in China. Et, voila!, it was a better fit than the new one I recently sent back to Alpha Industries. Chest a little narrower (26.25 v. 27 in.); arms a little longer (26 in. v. I can't remember). Just looks better. My question is this: is this surplus, or just a repro? do the three stripes mean jack? or the label numbers? Here it is again (note how handy it becomes if one is shot down behind enemy lines):

View attachment 8381

Not surplus and not repro it jacket designed for the civilian market --- do the three stripes

 

[Edward]

I think that's a current model...

http://www.alphaindustries.com/Mens-Flight-Jackets/Alpha-Industries-Ma-1-Blood-Chit.asp

Where are the labels in the first picture located on yours? Looking at their website, they do still seem to have one or two pretty good jackets, even if some of the details / blurb is off. They look like they're gonig for a more military fit (labelled "tight fit") with a bunch of things, though they're not gonig for exact repro nomenclature or labelling - see the basic model of the better MA1 series, which is sold in a whole range of colours including the milspec ones, and listed as a 1950s jacket, even though the orange lining didn't come in until the early Sixties (as confirmed by Atticus in the other thread).

I'm giving serious consideration to this when I have my finances sorted:

http://www.alphaindustries.com/Mens-Flight-Jackets/Alpha-Industries-Replica-B-15-Flight-Jacket.asp

This does actually look like a reissue of the early 90s Reproduction series, especially considering the spec. Wish they'd do an L2/L2A/L2B to this level...

 

[Atticus Finch]

It isn't a military jacket, but I don't know enough about repros to know when it was made.

AF

 

[Atticus Finch]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but why such an interest in Alpha repros when originals are still available? It seems that the quality of this or that repro is inevitably compared to the quality of an original. Why not just buy an original? I checked eBay and there are several E-series MA-1s for sale this morning. The auctions are young, but their prices appear low as compared to the BIN prices of the newer Alpha repros.

Again, I'm not trying to persuade anyone away from a purchase...and I do understand that some people don't like to wear used clothing...but I am curious as to why nobody appears interested in buying an original MA-1, even if it needs a bit of fixing it up. Wouldn’t it be a better long run investment?

AF

 

[Edward]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but why such an interest in Alpha repros when originals are still available? It seems that the quality of this or that repro is inevitably compared to the quality of an original. Why not just buy an original? I checked eBay and there are several E-series MA-1s for sale this morning. The auctions are young, but their prices appear low as compared to the BIN prices of the newer Alpha repros.

Again, I'm not trying to persuade anyone away from a purchase...and I do understand that some people don't like to wear used clothing...but I am curious as to why nobody appears interested in buying an original MA-1, even if it needs a bit of fixing it up. Wouldn’t it be a better long run investment?

AF

It's a fair point.... It seems only a few years ago this was a live issue re Irvins. For me personally it's that the last Jacket model I'm interested in particularly is the first MA1 with the green liner (my interest in the jackets pretty much stops in 1959), and they don't seem to show up in XL with any regularity, at least not in the sort of condition I'd find wearable. Buying an original isn't really important to me - once I have the spare scratch, if I got a Buzz at the right price I'd be very happy - but I certainly wouldn't turn down the right original at the right price. I'm actually very tempted to wait it out for the right original N2A.... they seem to be only a fraction of the price of original B15Cs...

 

[Ernest P Shackleton]

When I was a starving college student, I saved myself $25 by going with the repro and not the actual military issue. My repro was a decent jacket. I can't complain about its performance or durability, yet it never felt right when wearing it, though wear it I did. The modeling and shaping of the seams and fit were too clean. The sleeves were straight and not shaped. One of those cases when the small details are what make something desirable, but those same details are the first things to be sacrificed to the knock-offs. I've made this mistake too many times to care to admit.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I'm actually very tempted to wait it out for the right original N2A.... they seem to be only a fraction of the price of original B15Cs...

There was much discussion about this on VLJ some years ago. I think we agreed that the original B-15s were usually issued to specific aircrew and (as an intermediate weight jacket) were worn in a wide spectrum of conditions. So they were eventually worn out. The N-2A was often squadron gear and was worn in only very cold conditions, so much less use was inflicted on these jackets. But you're right. They were almost a dime a dozen on eBay a few years ago...even in size XL.

AF

 

[Atticus Finch]

I hope forum rules don't prohibit me saying this, but I actually found a 1965 Alpha D series MA-1 this morning. It was in decent condition and was one of the'65s that had the Crown (C&C) main zipper. It had a $125 BIN...ten bucks less than one vendor wanted for a new Alpha repro.

AF

 

[AustinTX]

Atticus et al,

It's not, for me, a disinclination to buy originals. I've looked, but what I've seen is either too dear, or is too worn/torn for what I want. I am a complete novice in this arena; whereas folks like you have been at it for awhile and have earned a discriminating eye for these things. Also, I want something to wear, and I suspect that pure collectors push me out of that market price-wise. I get that; I simply can't compete on that level. So I'm browsing the lower end of the market, somewhat. In a previous thread I admitted to buying a straight-off-the-website Alpha MA-1 whose fit was frankly a joke (think Stay Puff Marshmallow Man). That was returned, but the comments about the fabled Made-in-USA Alpha Vintage Series intrigued me. So I saw this 'Murican-made Alpha Blood Chit MA-1 and thought, why not? And it does fit better, with nicer nylon than the other Alpha or my Tru-Spec, but not nearly as nice as a Real McCoy's. Back to the original question: Does the label here mean anything, or is this jacket just something Alpha ginned up in the marketing dept.?

 

[AustinTX]

I think that's a current model...

http://www.alphaindustries.com/Mens-Flight-Jackets/Alpha-Industries-Ma-1-Blood-Chit.asp

Where are the labels in the first picture located on yours? Looking at their website, they do still seem to have one or two pretty good jackets, even if some of the details / blurb is off. They look like they're gonig for a more military fit (labelled "tight fit") with a bunch of things, though they're not gonig for exact repro nomenclature or labelling - see the basic model of the better MA1 series, which is sold in a whole range of colours including the milspec ones, and listed as a 1950s jacket, even though the orange lining didn't come in until the early Sixties (as confirmed by Atticus in the other thread).

I'm giving serious consideration to this when I have my finances sorted:

http://www.alphaindustries.com/Mens-Flight-Jackets/Alpha-Industries-Replica-B-15-Flight-Jacket.asp

This does actually look like a reissue of the early 90s Reproduction series, especially considering the spec. Wish they'd do an L2/L2A/L2B to this level...

Yes, the B-15 seems interesting. I looked at that for quite some time myself. The label from my first picture is buried in the left (?) or right (?) outer slash pocket. Miles from home at the moment, can't remember which.

 

[Justhandguns]

Atticus et al,
Back to the original question: Does the label here mean anything, or is this jacket just something Alpha ginned up in the marketing dept.?

This labels shown in the first post are typical civilian Alpha tags. But at least it says Made in USA. Typically for MA-1/L-2B, you can find the label inside the left hand pocket. This is the feature of the later MA-1 jackets where as the earlier real deal MA-1 jackets (possibly up to the "B" contracts) have labels sewed at the top centre of the orange lining. Correct me if I am wrong.

The other thing is, whenever you see "Made in USA" or "Made in Knoxville" on the labels, these jackets are civilian versions. Hope this helps.

 

[Edward]

There was much discussion about this on VLJ some years ago. I think we agreed that the original B-15s were usually issued to specific aircrew and (as an intermediate weight jacket) were worn in a wide spectrum of conditions. So they were eventually worn out. The N-2A was often squadron gear and was worn in only very cold conditions, so much less use was inflicted on these jackets. But you're right. They were almost a dime a dozen on eBay a few years ago...even in size XL.

AF

So were there actually fewer issued than B15Cs? I was always under the impression that the rarity of the B15C was down to there having been very few actually issued over the years, but I make no claim to even an iota of your knowledge on the nylons!

I hope forum rules don't prohibit me saying this, but I actually found a 1965 Alpha D series MA-1 this morning. It was in decent condition and was one of the'65s that had the Crown (C&C) main zipper. It had a $125 BIN...ten bucks less than one vendor wanted for a new Alpha repro.

AF

There do seem to be quite a few larger-sized 60s MA1s available at reasonable prices, I've noticed that too.

'Murican-made Alpha Blood Chit MA-1 and thought, why not? And it does fit better, with nicer nylon than the other Alpha or my Tru-Spec, but not nearly as nice as a Real McCoy's.

If my experience with the Alpha Replica series jacket and my Buzz is typical, I'd say it's like comparing a Schott to an Aero.

Yes, the B-15 seems interesting. I looked at that for quite some time myself. The label from my first picture is buried in the left (?) or right (?) outer slash pocket. Miles from home at the moment, can't remember which.

Sounds like it probably is that model currently on the website.

 

[Atticus Finch]

So were there actually fewer issued than B15Cs? I was always under the impression that the rarity of the B15C was down to there having been very few actually issued over the years.

I was speaking about B-15s generally. All of the editions from first to "D". I'm not sure how many B-15Cs were issued as compared to N-2As. I think the blue B-15Cs (there were green B-15Cs, too) were only made from 1948 until 1952 or 1953. I think the current rarity of B-15s, generally, is due to the fact that they received much more wear from their owners than did N jackets. They were completely worn out and discarded.

AF

 

[Atticus Finch]

Typically for MA-1/L-2B, you can find the label inside the left hand pocket. This is the feature of the later MA-1 jackets where as the earlier real deal MA-1 jackets (possibly up to the "B" contracts) have labels sewed at the top centre of the orange lining. Correct me if I am wrong.

The white pocket tags first appeard in C-series MA-1s in 1961...the same year that the orange linings first appeared. B-series MA-1s still had green linings and their spec tags were black and located just below the collar.

AF

 

[Atticus Finch]

Back to the original question: Does the label here mean anything, or is this jacket just something Alpha ginned up in the marketing dept.?

I do understand your reasons for wanting a repro as opposed to an original. I often forget a couple of things. First, MA-1s fit me better than almost any other military jacket because I'm "thick" and original MA-1s are short-waisted and puffy. It’s a match made in heaven. But vintage nylon isn't for everyone, especially taller people with long torsos. Tall, long-waisted guys often look like matadors when they wear original ‘50s nylon…especially L-2Bs. Second, I’m a nylon geek who is overly interested in useless jacket minutia. I sometimes forget that many folks just want a nice jacket to wear and couldn’t care less if it is from the first contract after the Air Force changed from green linings to orange.

To finally address your question...I think the jacket you are looking at is a newer, civilain Alpha. I have never seen an MA-1...original or otherwise...with a blood chit printed on the lining. So I think this is a new offering from Alpha.

AF

 

[Justhandguns]

The white pocket tags first appeard in C-series MA-1s in 1961...the same year that the orange linings first appeared. B-series MA-1s still had green linings and their spec tags were black and located just below the collar.

AF

Yes, that is what I thought as well. I think the reason that they are not sewing the tag on the lining is because the jacket is supposed to be reversible with the orange lining.

And you are also right about the original MA-1/B-15 nylon flight jackets. They are all puffy and short, one of my L-2B is unbelievable short, it's almost like a woman's fashion bomber. I guess some of us are so used to repro authenticity around here and we have accustomed to a somewhat different perspective of what beautiful means to the general public or mainstream fashion.

 

[Doctor Damage]

And you are also right about the original MA-1/B-15 nylon flight jackets. They are all puffy and short, one of my L-2B is unbelievable short, it's almost like a woman's fashion bomber. I guess some of us are so used to repro authenticity around here and we have accustomed to a somewhat different perspective of what beautiful means to the general public or mainstream fashion.

That raises an interesting point about repros - should they be 100% duplications of vintage jackets, sizing, flaws and all? or does a good repro make some improvements and upgrades and perhaps even some changes to proportions. If I'm not mistaken, humanity is steadily changing statistically in terms of height, girth, etc. so what fitted "the average male" in 1940 or 1950 might not fit the average male of today.

In any case, I appreciate you guys being blunt about fitting. Although I'm attracted to these jackets, I'm tall and thin and I'm now certain that 99% of these jackets would be too short and too puffy on me.

 

[Sloan1874]

The same discussion is made about the knits on A-2s. On the originals, they often stretched out and hung loose - should modern ones do the same, or should they use better, more resilient materials? Personally, if I'm shelling out cash, I'd rather have the latter than endlessly explain the historical authenticity of my jacket's failings. [huh] YMMV.