WWI - The war in the air

Smithy · Mar 13, 2014

Seeing as we're talking planes, here's one:

What is your favourite WWI aircraft and why?

For me it has to be the SE5a in either Hisso or Viper engine form. Apart from looking the business to my eyes it was also the mount of the two units I am most interested in: 56 Sqn RFC/RAF and 2 Sqn AFC.

Fast, a stable gun platform and good looking to boot!

Stearmen · Mar 14, 2014

I always liked the lines of the Phalz fighters. But, the crazy ballet of the front gunner on the F2b is incredible. The first American ace Frederick Libby, got his start as a gunner in a FEE!

Stearmen · Mar 14, 2014

I also like the Spad VII flown by Raoul Lufbery. Would love to build a flying replica, but engines are out of my price range! Hard to beet a replica Fokker Dr1. You would use a radial engine in place of the rotary. The landings can be fun to. The axe handles on the wing tip are there for a reason!

Smithy · Mar 14, 2014

Good choice with the Pfalz Stearmen, such a beautifully proportioned and looking aircraft.

And I know what you mean about the observer in the Fee, brave men those standing up and trying to blaze away with the Lewis whilst in a slipsteam, with the pilot jinking the plane around and all the while being shot at!

That photo of the Dr.1 landing is classic. Stiff drink needed at the aerodrome's club bar after that one

Guttersnipe · Mar 16, 2014

A lot of German pilots disliked the Pfalz DIII, especially as compared to its contemporary the Albatros DIII, because it was tricky to handle, slower, and had a nasty tendency to stall in turns. However, similar the Sopwith Camel, its instability could be an asset in the hands of an experienced pilot. Although, the Pfalz was a much sturdier airframe that could take more punishment than the Albatros.

For me, the Albotros DV and DVa are the classic German fighters of WWI:

Smithy · Mar 16, 2014

Guttersnipe said:
A lot of German pilots disliked the Pfalz DIII, especially as compared to its contemporary the Albatros DIII, because it was tricky to handle, slower, and had a nasty tendency to stall in turns. However, similar the Sopwith Camel, its instability could be an asset in the hands of an experienced pilot. Although, the Pfalz was a much sturdier airframe that could take more punishment than the Albatros.

For me, the Albotros DV and DVa are the classic German fighters of WWI:

I always think there's something shark-like about the Albatros D.Vs.

Is that one of Kempf's mounts in the photo?

Stearmen · Mar 17, 2014

Smithy said:
Didn't know that Stearmen, I had always thought it was a combination of the structural troubles which plagued it, its slow speed and rate of dive - especially compared with Allied scouts in 1918.

You have to wonder if the fuel issue was a big problem why orders were placed for the rotary Siemens-Schuckert D.IV. Not disputing you (German aircraft aren't my strong point) but just interested to know why.

Cheers,

Tim

They were desperate. I love that plane, but they put in more orders for the Fokker DVII by far. Of course, they also ordered the Fokker DVIII into production, with it's rotary engine! So, who knows. Maybe, the right hand wasn't watching the left.

Smithy · Mar 17, 2014

Stearmen said:
They were desperate. I love that plane, but they put in more orders for the Fokker DVII by far. Of course, they also ordered the Fokker DVIII into production, with it's rotary engine! So, who knows. Maybe, the right hand wasn't watching the left.

Wouldn't be the first nor the last time that happened Stearmen. They did the same thing in the next war

And I'm with you the S-S D.IV was a gorgeous aircraft and incredibly capable.

In terms of the Fokker D.VII, it's interesting how many contemporary Allied accounts of it demonstrate how wary of it they were. It was an excellent aeroplane and in the right hands extremely deadly.

Another one which must be up there with the best scouts of the war was the Sopwith Dolphin. It was due to get a more powerful engine (but obviously didn't happen before the end of hostilities) which would have made it an even more effective aircraft than it already was.

Stearmen · Mar 17, 2014

For those of you who do not know what a Siemens-Schuckert D.IV looks like. It reminds me of the Grumman F8f Bearcat of later fame. The biggest engine you can stuff, into the smallest airframe!

Mr.Astor · Mar 17, 2014

Stearman, what about the Gee-Bee? Always liked the bearcat F8F! There was a gentlemen from Dallas Texas that used to fly at air shows in the south Pensacola in particular in the 1960's F8F Bearcat Cadillac bronze, he was a Cadillac dealer from Dallas Texas. I worked on the crash crew so we used to get up close and personal with these guy's. A7, another one carried it's weight in ordnance.

Smithy · Mar 17, 2014

Stearmen said:
For those of you who do not know what a Siemens-Schuckert D.IV looks like. It reminds me of the Grumman F8f Bearcat of later fame. The biggest engine you can stuff, into the smallest airframe!

Great photos Stearmen!

As well as the big engine, have a look at the size of that prop

DNO · Mar 18, 2014

After the war, Canada received 22 Fokker DVII's as 'war prizes'. A number of these went to equip the fledgling Canadian air force. There's only one survivor now, I believe (at least in Canada). It's sitting in a small county museum in the town of Knowlton, Quebec, south of Montreal. A few years ago there was talk of selling it in order to raise funds for the museum but apparently the idea was dismissed. It's never been restored or 'fixed-up'. Apparently it's the only surviving DVII that has it's original canvas skin. (There's another one in the Canadian Aviation Museum in Ottawa, but that's been restored. It was purchased from the U.S.)

I haven't seen this Fokker. Actually I've just discovered it myself! A short trip to Knowlton may be in order this summer.

DNO · Mar 18, 2014

Smithy said:
Another one which must be up there with the best scouts of the war was the Sopwith Dolphin. It was due to get a more powerful engine (but obviously didn't happen before the end of hostilities) which would have made it an even more effective aircraft than it already was.

I know I mentioned the 'Bandy Papers' series in another thread, but when you do get around to those books, the third volume (It's Me Again) has Bandy leading a squadron of Dolphins.

Smithy · Mar 18, 2014

DNO said:
I know I mentioned the 'Bandy Papers' series in another thread, but when you do get around to those books, the third volume (It's Me Again) has Bandy leading a squadron of Dolphins.

Good stuff DNO, I've got about three books to read first and then it's the Bandy Papers, good to hear there's one with Dolphins.

That Fokker is unbelievable and to see the original lozenge is just bloody brilliant.

Many thanks for posting those snaps DNO, and you definitely have to take a trip to that museum - and take a lot more photos for us here

Captain Nemo · Mar 19, 2014

Smithy said:
Thanks for those links Captain, looks to be a very interesting place.

One thing that is fairly common reading diaries or letters of those who flew in the Great War was that they were often keen to have a crack at the enemy, however once there at the front, they quickly learned that it was a very vicious and dangerous place to be, even in 1918 when some of the most savage air fighting occurred. Most airmen had very little training, and no operational training - this is one of the reasons why the RAF set up OTU (Operational Training Units) in WWII to provide an intermediary step between pure flight training and combat flying.

Those men you mention were probably very lucky. The British Air Forces alone had a casualty rate of 1 in 6 men being killed (that figure doesn't include wounded but killed in active operational service) so it gives you some kind of idea of just how dangerous being sent to fly and fight in WWI was.

Sir,

I'm glad you found the links interesting.

One other reference you might find of use is the 4 volume US Air Service in World War I, edited by Maurer. The historians at the US Air Force Historical Research Agency have placed these volumes online. The copies of volumes 3 and 4 are of uneven quality, but the data is still there.

On the link, go to study #147 to download the copies.

http://www.afhra.af.mil/studies/numberedusafhistoricalstudies101-150.asp

One anecdote of amusing interest from the Volume 4 introduction---
Maj Gen Mason Patrick, the Chief of the AEF Air Service, directed Col Edgar Gorrell to collect data for lessons learned following the armistice. Gen Patrick ordered that no one was to depart until he "furnished in writing to Colonel Gorrell any information of value which he possess[es] and which he has acquired in the American Air Service."

Most, of course, complied fully. However one unit came up with a form letter for its pilots to be signed and sent----

"I certify that I have acquired, while in the Air Service, no information of value."

Smithy · Mar 19, 2014

Captain Nemo said:
"I certify that I have acquired, while in the Air Service, no information of value."

That's brilliant

Thanks for the link Captain Nemo, nice to see them make this information publically available.

One of the best histories I've seen from the war (and I think our fellow member DNO will bear me out on this) is Cutlack's history of the Australian Flying Corps which is Volume VIII in the official history of Australia's involvement in the conflict (edited by Charles Bean). Cutlack's work, although 90 years old, is extremely readable and I'd recommend it to anyone with an interest in the air war - it's a masterful book. The original 1923 edition is pricey now but it was reprinted by the Uni of Queensland in the mid 80s (my copy) and was reprinted again a few years back. Simply wonderful book.

Smithy · Mar 19, 2014

Here's one for the armchair flyers - the best $27 I've spent in a very long time...

Not terribly long ago I picked up the flight sim "First Eagles 2" (which is available here: https://store.thirdwire.com/project_fe2.htm

I've played a fair few sims over the years mostly IL2, Battle of Britain Wings of Victory, MiG Alley, etc but First Eagles really is my favourite by a very long chalk. The graphics are lovely, sound is brilliant, the flight models excellent, the enemy AI the best I have seen in a sim and with both a great campaign and quick custom missions, huge variety of missions (offensive and defensive patrols, reconnaissance, balloon busting, ground attack (strafing and bombing troop columns, railway yards, trenches, etc) and a lot more. It is also supported by a very large community with many additional patches and downloads to add extra aircraft, maps, and extra realism.

If you're after a really fantastic WWI flight sim, get it - at only $27 it has to be one of the flight sim bargains of all time. The dogfights are simply incredible.

Stearmen · Mar 29, 2014

This book was written by Americas first Ace. The first half is a little dry, about his prewar days, as a Cowboy in Colorado, hence the title. His adventures as a FEE gunner is unbelievable!

Renault · Apr 14, 2014

PT Monteith said:
If you haven't seen the movie The Great Waldo Pepper, it's a decent WWI flying period piece from the 70's. The story revolves around the post war propagation of barstorming, wingwalking, and flying circuses. There's good footage of spads, sopsaps, and the fokker tri....not to mention a very young Susan Sarandon.

[video=youtube;H5Y9UCGYpl0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5Y9UCGYpl0[/video]

And the flight down the middle of "Main Street" was filmed in Elgin Texas. I've resided about 10 miles south of town for over 35 years now.

Stearmen · Apr 22, 2014

I just found out, during June 1918, most of the Fokker Dr1 Triplane squadrons were grounded at varying times. Seems, the Allied blockade was taking it's toll. The rotary engines need high grade castor oil, and castor beans were becoming very scarce. The Germans, made a synthetic substitute, but it was not as good at cooling, and engines burned out, not good, in the heat of combat!

WWI - The war in the air

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