1940s/1950s cars vs. 1960s cars

[MikeKardec]

Toronto still has trolley cars and trolley buses, and so do a lot of other cities. Soon it will be possible to do away with the trolley wires and run electric buses. This would be the best, cheapest, and cleanest solution to the mass transit problem yet.

Until we get automatic, self driving electric taxis.

When it was first brought up I was thinking that the overhead wires might be good for a traveling recharge without having to use an internal combustion engine ... a way to plug in with out having to be out of service.

 

[MikeKardec]

Boston's Green Line trolleys are still a vital part of the "T", and likely will be for a long time to come, not for their "vintage" appeal but because they're *there*, and any attempt to modify any part of the system turns into a gigantic construction disaster, given how byzantine the whole network of tracks and streets in Downtown Boston is.

Up until the mid-twenties, it was possible to ride all the way from coastal Maine to Boston by interurban trolley. With a lot of transfers, but it was possible.

Even in that remote country of southwest Colorado remnants of the Rio Grande narrow gauge network existed into the 1960s. The tourist trains that run out of Durango and Chama were part of the greater network but originally it was pretty extensive, in later years it rarely made any money but it would be sure be fun and useful to me if still existed, it ran west from our ranch to Cortez and east to Durango and Farmington. The "use enough dynamite there, Butch?" train robbery scene was shot on the Farmington/Bayfield stub just before the shut it down.

It'd be fantastic to catch a train or a Galloping Goose --



-- into town rather than having to drive!

 

[Edward]

The sixties was a big turning point for the British car industry. This was the decade when monocoque construction gradually repalced the separate chassis, and cars finally reached a point where they were affordable, and available, to the average working man. It was this affordability of cars that, in large part, killed the British motorcycle industry by the early 70s. I really wish we could go back to an era where there were fewer cars and more motorcycles on the road in London...

And the worse part is that were so dependent on auto mechanics for their "expertise" when back in the day if you had taken auto shop in high school, which many schools don't even offer anymore, you could have done most of your own repairs. Not so today.

True to an extent, but really, it seems to me inevitable that this would happen once they get beyond a certain level of complexity, in much the same way as in the 70s, learning to programme a computer was a hobbyist activity; now, it's a serious academic ability and a specialist profession...

You appear to be partial to Mopars.

I'm reminded of the old Car Talk routine, wherein Tom Magliozzi posed the query of the first Biblical mention of the automobile, and, part 2, what type of car God drives.

It's in Genesis, and God drives a Plymouth ...

"In his Fury, God drove them from the Garden of Eden."

I personally prefer young Joshua and his motorcycle - "The walls of Jericho fell, and the roar of his Triumph was heard throughout the land."

I have not owned a car since I moved into NYC in the late '80s (even including an 8 year stretch in Boston in there). As Lizzie points out, NE cities are set up for not having a car. Even the town I grew up in NJ was set up for people to walk (even though almost everyone had a car). My mom and I would walk from our house into "town," but we were an exception. I love not having the responsibility of owning a car - and I like cars, but it became just another thing to take care of (service, fix, replace this, get inspected, etc.). It breaks my heart that we took streetcars / trolleys out of so many towns and communities - a great way to get around a reasonably sized community.

I'm the same here in London. Back in Northern Ireland, you're stuffed without a car. I hated driving, but it was a necessary evil. Here in London, I have no need of a car whatever. I can go ten months at a time without being in a car; I think the last time I took a taxi in London was nearly two years ago. If I came into money, I'd love to have a few vintaqge cars to run for a hobby, but it's lovely not being forced to buy some practical moneypit just to get around...

I'm hoping the wonderful strides made in electric batteries, electric motors and electronic controls will give us electric buses soon. Prototypes have been built and are being tested. One idea I like, is an electric bus that connects to a power line when stopped at a bus stop, and gets a quick charge. They already have buses that will run all day on one charge. I don't know if they have considered the problem of heating and air conditioning which use a lot of power. I can see a tiny propane powered engine charging the batteries, and its waste heat used to warm the interior of the bus. With an air conditioner attached to the engine for summer.

Big strides are being made. They've long been trialling a hydrogen bus here in London (sole output: water vapour), but the latest mainstream bus, fast replacing all others, is dual-powered. Both a diesel engine, and electric. On most routes, at least in the centre of town, the diesel is only used to start the electric motor; once in motion, it runs on the electric only. Lovely piece of design as a whole.

I fantasise about the day when they ban all private cars from central London, and cycling (and motorcycling) in town becomes safe...

 

[Stanley Doble]

I like the idea of a small, high efficiency, constant speed engine driving a generator as a supplement to battery power. A hybrid system that can be used as an urban electric but is not limited by its batteries. Plus I don't think even the best batteries have enough power to drive the heating and cooling systems on a bus in addition to powering it.

 

[Stearmen]

You do have to wonder why generator cars are not in mass production? All the aircraft carriers of the U.S. in WWII were turbo electric, steam engines driving generators to give the power to the electric motors that propelled the ship. Turbo electric trains, and nuclear submarines and ships are turbo electric! I can remember people making home built cars with generators powering the electric motor back in the 60s.

 

[MikeKardec]

You do have to wonder why generator cars are not in mass production? All the aircraft carriers of the U.S. in WWII were turbo electric, steam engines driving generators to give the power to the electric motors that propelled the ship. Turbo electric trains, and nuclear submarines and ships are turbo electric! I can remember people making home built cars with generators powering the electric motor back in the 60s.

So far as I can tell pure generator hybrids are only used if there is a collateral benefit, like the gentle acceleration (lack of gearing) needed for railroad trains or the running under water aspect of subs. The current hybrid car system is certainly seems flexible with the internal combustion engine firing up to give a needed boost of power. Do they also use the engine to charge the batts or is it just reclaimed braking and plugged in energy?

I have a small RV where the "house" batteries can charge off of solar cells or the alternators or when plugged in. Plugged in and solar will top off the batts but driving or clicking the engine into "charge" mode (high idle) takes MUCH longer and often can not achieve a topped off battery. I'm sure that's more of a systems interface issue where the alternators just weren't designed with enough punch but I've seen residential stand by gen-sets that have the same diesel engine as the RV and they can easily run a whole house. Now that house isn't trying to move, and it's not trying to recharge a battery as it's doing so. The main difference I see is the massive size of the residential generator windings ... if that's what the difference is. That probably wouldn't be a problem on a battle ship or a train but when you are trying to build cars as light as possible it could be an issue.

I think our society always make a mistake in trying to immediately apply these technologies to automobiles where the values of weight, range, cost, safety, vibration resistance, heat and cold tolerance, and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm aware must be held in careful balance. Just like you were pointing out about trains and aircraft carriers, some technology, like hydrogen fuel cells, might need to get it's start in ships and stand by power for critical systems and remote homes before it can be refined to the levels of size efficiency and durability needed for personal transportation.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I understood from reading "Popular Science" that by the year 2000 automobiles would be powered by their own miniature nuclear reactors. Ah, postwar optimism.

 

[plain old dave]

Well, there was the Chrysler Turbine Car, too. Would run on virtually any flammable liquid.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

 

[Stearmen]

I understood from reading "Popular Science" that by the year 2000 automobiles would be powered by their own miniature nuclear reactors. Ah, postwar optimism.

As Jeremy Clarkson, of Top Gear said, in regards to a nuclear powered cars, "how hard could it be?"

 

[AtomicEraTom]

I remember my first time driving, if sitting on dad's lap and steering counts. I had to be around 3 years old in Mom's 77 LTD wagon, on dad's lap, piloting from Hochheim Rd to the barn at the end of the driveway. Can picture it like yesterday.

Cars are so much a part of my life that I can't remember when I first drove one. It started by being plopped down in the Old Man's lap to steer the thing while motoring down some lonesome stretch of highway. I was doing that at such an early age that it stretches back further than my memory. I was driving ramp tugs (those little tractor-like things that tow baggage carts) at SeaTac airport before I was legal to drive on the public roadways (you could get away with that kind of stuff back then; I just forged a birth certificate to make myself two years older). I've owned what must be dozens of motor vehicles of widely varying descriptions since then, and I capably operated all of them. But I make no claim to extraordinary driving skill. I'm a better driver now than I've ever been. My senses and reflexes aren't as sharp as they once were, but my judgement improves with each passing year.

A BIG +1

Well, to a car guy, keeping obsolete technology going is a good part of the hobby.

I'm shocked you'd talk aggressive looking cars and not mention the 1959 Buick or Dodge.

The thing about design that gets me is the need to make everything look "aggressive." Yes indeed, Mr. Cubicle J. Keyboarder, all 140 baldheaded pounds of him, needs a car that makes him feel like Atilla the Hun while driving to the Pick-n-Save. It says something very unfortunate about the postwar American psyche that "aggressiveness" is a vital design selling point.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The malevolent eyebrows on that Dodge make it look a bit like the late Senator McCarthy. Except that the car is -- ah -- red.

 

[plain old dave]

There's something intrinsically... RIGHT about a red Dodge.





The D-500, Dodge's 1950s retail race car. While the 300 was intended for executives needing high speed transportation, the D-500 was a NASCAR stock car, almost fully prepared from the factory. The 1950s Chrysler 300s, Dodge D-500s and to a degree Plymouth Furies were revolutionary cars; for the first time the American motorist could purchase a car that, without any modifications whatsoever, was capable of 130mph+ top speeds and could competently handle curvy roads like TN-116 or US-129 going over into North Carolina. US-129 is well known to motorcyclists all over the world, and film noir fans will recognize it as the curvy backroad from the main chase in the Robert Mitchum classic "Thunder Road."

 

[vitanola]

I don't know, but to me a bright red Dodge Brothers machine just looks wrong. View attachment image.jpg


Black, green or "Dodge Brothers Blue" just seems more appropriate.

View attachment image.jpg

View attachment image.jpg

 

[Stanley Doble]

"They've long been trialling a hydrogen bus here in London (sole output: water vapour), "

Good idea but doing it the hard way. They could just as easily burn natural gas or propane. They burn practically as clean as hydrogen and you can use an ordinarly gas engine. I used to work in a factory, all the fork lifts in the warehouse were electric or propane powered. You can run a propane fork lift indoors where you could not run a diesel or gasoline engine, that is how pollution free they are.

The best way to make hydrogen is to extract it from natural gas anyway. There are no hydrogen wells, it all has to be made from something and gas is easiest. Why not just burn the natural gas?

 

[plain old dave]

For some reason, I can't see the images...

I don't know, but to me a bright red Dodge Brothers machine just looks wrong. View attachment 36990

Black, green or "Dodge Brothers Blue" just seems more appropriate.

View attachment 36990

View attachment 36990

 

[Stearmen]

There's something intrinsically... RIGHT about a red Dodge.


The D-500, Dodge's 1950s retail race car. While the 300 was intended for executives needing high speed transportation, the D-500 was a NASCAR stock car, almost fully prepared from the factory. The 1950s Chrysler 300s, Dodge D-500s and to a degree Plymouth Furies were revolutionary cars; for the first time the American motorist could purchase a car that, without any modifications whatsoever, was capable of 130mph+ top speeds and could competently handle curvy roads like TN-116 or US-129 going over into North Carolina. US-129 is well known to motorcyclists all over the world, and film noir fans will recognize it as the curvy backroad from the main chase in the Robert Mitchum classic "Thunder Road."

Stock 300s would never do those speeds! I guarantee, if you put a 300 next to a Gullwing Mercedes on those roads, the poor handling 300 would go over a cliff trying to keep up! The Daytona 300s were modified with engines, transmissions and rear gears that were unavailable to the public. Here is a great article by one of the main architects of the Daytona runs. http://www.allpar.com/cars/chrysler/chrysler-300-at-daytona-beach.html They were probably the fastest American car, but not a world beater. Pontiac did a similar thing in the 60s, when they had Car And Driver pit GTO Vs GTO. Problem was, the Ferrari was a tired race car, that need an engine rebuild and the Pontiac was sent to Royal Pontiac, for the legendary Bobcat treatment! still, the Chrysler 300 is the first muscle car!

 

[plain old dave]

Put a 300 and a Gullwing next to each other and, as a good friend of mine would say, the Mercedes would need to bring along a spare set of doors. The 300, depending on year, has well over 100 more horsepower. And in some cases 150 or more; 413s were available in the 300H (1962 300H not the '69 300 Hurst) with up to 405hp. As to that article, read the rest of it. The 300s that weren't factory sponsored all broke 125 over the course without trying, considerably faster than any other domestically available offering of the day. Many States didn't have formal speed limits on the interstates in the mid-late 50s and it is entirely reasonable to infer that a car that could run in the mid 120s over a mile course should be able to break 130 over a several mile long stretch of interstate. I stand by what I said; the Chrysler 300 Letter Series was the first domestically available car capable of 130+ mph with no modifications.

 

[vitanola]

For some reason, I can't see the images...

Sorry,mthemlounge software just after the last update was not accepting photographs. It has apparently been fixed in fine style, and so I've re-loaded my pictures.

 

[plain old dave]

Saw the pics, and that era is exactly why I prefer 50s and 60s era cars. I have spent too many Sunday afternoons stuck behind the Smoky Mountain Model A Club on Norris Freeway as those things struggle to maintain 45 up even modest hills. I appreciate old iron as much as anybody else, but it should be used on roads where it doesn't obstruct traffic. Speed limit on the Norris Freeway along most of it is 55 and TN has not had a formal minimum speed limit law in decades; you technically could get a ticket for reckless driving for not maintaining highway speed, and that's usually seen by police as 5-10 or more under the posted limit.

 

[Stanley Doble]

If you really want to know what your old car could do look up the records of the Daytona Beach Speed Trials of the fifties and sixties. The speed trials run on the beach were for certified stock cars inspected by the AMA and were quite different from the stock car races.

In 1955 everyone expected the gullwing Mercedes to set new records. They didn't. Fastest car in the sports car class was a D Jaguar (a special racing model) at 164MPH.

Here are the results from 1956 with some comments by Tom McCahill director of the speed trials.

"One word about inspection and then I’ll give you the winning results. A cursory inspection was made of all entrants to allow them to run. The first three to finish in each class (i.e., the fastest cars in each event) were completely torn down and this year I invited the factories to have their engineers inspect the opposition. I even had the Ford men supply Chevrolet parts to compare against the winning Chevrolets, and Chevrolet men supply Ford parts to check against their opposition winner. This meant arduous hours of fine miking and hard work, particularly for George Forman, my Chief Inspector, as all the appointed assistant inspectors walked off and left him the final day to go to a party. In fact, George and I, under the eagle eye of a competitor’s factory engineer, were still miking parts of the last car to insure the true winner when the Victory Dinner was an hour under way and the trophies about to be awarded.

The big events of the Speed Trials were the U. S. Production Car Flying and Standing Miles. The overall winner of the Flying Mile, two-way average, was Tim Flock driving a 300B Chrysler for a new record at an average speed of 139.373. Second in overall standing was Danny Eames driving a ’56 Dodge 500 at an average speed of 130.577. In the small car class, 259-305 cubic inches, Murray Hartley of Erie, Pa., on his first trip to Florida, ran away with the Division at an average speed of 121.335 in a 1956 Chevrolet. In the Women’s Division, Mrs. Vicki Wood of Detroit, driving a 300B Chrysler, set a new record at 136.081.

In the Sports Car Division, John Fitch of Stamford, Conn., won the event in a ’56 Corvette with an average speed of 145.543. This is a new American Production Car record but not a new Sports Car record, which is still held by a D-Jaguar that averaged 164 and a fraction in 1955. Also, Zora Arkus-Duntov driving a fully-modified Corvette won this event at 147.300. In the Prototype Class, Vern Haule of California averaged 147.269 driving a prototype Mercury, in spite of the fact that the car was experiencing slight mechanical difficulty. Another outstanding prototype car was the ’56 Plymouth Fury driven by Phil Walters that averaged 136.415, or just under three mph slower than Tim Flock’s record-breaking 300B. In the European Sports Car Class Howard Meeker driving an XK140-MC Jaguar won the event at an average speed of 134.078. Another interesting time was Phil Stiles in an Austin-Healey 100SM with an average speed of exactly 128.

For the Mechanix Illustrated Acceleration Trophies, one mile from a standing start, Danny Eames’ 1956 Dodge 500 just beat out Brewster Shaw in a Chrysler 300B when he ran the distance at an average speed of 81.786 against Shaw’s time of 81.762. In the under-305-cubic-inch class, a ’56 Chevrolet was very close to the top large cars and averaged 81.392, driven by Ned Decker of Sherwood, Ohio. In the Popular Price Class, Murray Hartley, whose ’56 Chev won the under-305-cubic-inch Flying Mile, also took this Division at the same time. In the MI trophy runs for Sports Cars, Chuck Daigh of Long Beach, Calif, ran away with the event driving a ’56 Ford Thunderbird at an average speed of 88.779, a new record."

It was well known at the time that the beach imposed about a 10% reduction in speed, due to the drag of the wet sand and dense sea level air. The same car would go 10% faster on a hard cement or asphalt road farther inland. On the other hand all cars were prepared by expert mechanics and tuned to do their utmost. A car off the showroom floor, not broken in or prepared in any way would be somewhat slower.

Look here for the complete report.

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/speed-weeks-56/#more