P-51 crash at Reno Air Races

Atticus Finch said:

I agree. My father never failed a flight physical. He was in excellent health (for his age) the day he taxied his plane into the ditch.

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You might want to have your dad tested for alzheimer's. It can't hurt.

dhermann1 said:

In defense of 80 year old pilots, from everything I've ever read and seen, pilots just get better and better with age. I know the reflexes are not the same, so they might not be good fighter pilots any more, but I would feel safe with any 70 or 80 year old pilot who has been flying continuously and keeping up his proficiency. I'm sure there was a mechanical problem. They said he appeared to be trying to aim the plane away from the crowd. I doubt a younger pilot could have done significantly better in the circumstances.

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There's old pilots and there's bold pilots, but there's no old bold pilots

Is the trim tab important?

Presumably if it wasn't important, they wouldn't put it there

ButteMT61 said:

Just heard on the radio it had years of overhauls and rebuilding and they're focusing on the rear where the pix seem to show a failure.

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I believe the radio also mentioned that there had been modifications including changing the dimensions of the wings to try to make the plane faster. I could understand how modifying one part could change the stress on another ...

MikeBravo said:

Is the trim tab important?

Presumably if it wasn't important, they wouldn't put it there

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The trim tab allows the pilot to adjust the control surface (the elevator, in this case) to maintain neutral pressure on the stick. As power (thrust) is changed, the aircraft's trim must also be changed, otherwise the pilot would have to constantly exert pressure on the controls to remain in trim.

But remember, the P-51 was built for combat. I believe that a certain amount of redundancy was designed into this aircraft's control system. I doubt that the loss of an elevator trim tab would necessarily result in the loss of a "stock" P-51. I can't help but think there were times when portions of control surfaces, or even entire control surfaces, were shot away from P-51s without loss of the aircraft. That being said, I'm not sure what modifications were made to this specific aircraft and how they may have affected its stability.

AF

dnjan said:

I believe the radio also mentioned that there had been modifications including changing the dimensions of the wings to try to make the plane faster. I could understand how modifying one part could change the stress on another ...

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Yes, true. Shortened quite a bit, per the report. The theory as it stands today is that the trim tab may have contributed to sudden climb/descent and the high-G's knocking the pilot out, hence he doesn't show in the pics in the cockpit.

We need to remember that comparing a stock P-51 to Galloping Ghost is an apple and oranges situation. A stock Merlin engine puts out only 1700hp at 61 inches manifold pressure, and 3100rpm, while the race Mustangs put out over 3500 plus hp at 145 plus inches and 3400rpm. Both the wings and the horizontal tail planes were dramatically shortened, putting stability at the ragged edge, but increasing speed! When a plane is at it's limits on stability, it doesn't take much to up set the delicate balance. Lets also remember those whose lives will be changed for ever by this accident. Not just the loss of a loved one, but also those with life changing injuries, loss of limbs, blindness, and internal injuries!

Yup! GG was a RACER NOT a standard P-51.

Scott

[video=youtube;X_qKVMyieVo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_qKVMyieVo[/video]

I have just returned from the Reno Air Races and was one of the first responders to the accident...less than 1 minute away from the impact site! Jimmy Leeward, the pilot of the "Galloping Ghost" was a very capable and confident pilot and have known he and his wife for 25 years. I have been a volunteer at the Air Races for 25 years as a ramp and taxi security personel, and have seen many airplane crashes through the years, as I am stationed right on the airport tarmac about 100 yards from the runway... and have an unobstructive view of the race course from pylon 1 to pylons 7, 8, 9, and the checkered pylon which by the way is were I was stationed when Jimmy's plane had his problem. This is the first time that an airplane actually crashed into the spectator's area since the races started in 1964. Jimmy's plane was approching the checkered pylon doing about 450 m.p.h. and was closing in on the leaders "Strega" and the "Rare Bear" when I heard a sharp... crack... and Jimmy's plane made an immediate vertical jump... for about two seconds and leveled off. Then his plane made a vertical steep climb heading off the course which is not strange as that is what the racers do when declaring a "Mayday"... and that is what I was thinking at the time...but the aircraft did not throttle down... which is standard proceedure and was now starting to do a high speed barrel roll heading towards the grand stands at about 600 feet still doing over 400 m.p.h.! The plane entered a vertical dive but "seemed" to make an attempt to pull out but at that altitude that was not going to happen. By now I'm sure you've all seen the videos of the crash from all different angles... but I'm telling you, knowing Jimmy Leeward as I do... if he could have, he would have directed the plane away from the spectators no matter the cost! I believe that during the first violent vertical maneuver... threw Jimmy's head into the canopy and knocked him unconscious and the still photos show that you could not see Jimmy's head in the cockpit conopy. This same thing happened in 2000 when Bob Hanna flying "Voodo" lost a trim tab on the elevator which pitched his plane violently up and knocked him unconscious but regain consciousness after his plane flew about 4,000 feet streight up!

The Reno Air Races takes 8 to 9 months to organize with the FAA and the NTSB to hold safe races and have done so since 1964. If you took all the deaths from air racing and air shows you would not come up with 1% of the total deaths from any other motor sports in the world. You talk to the pilots about the risks and they will tell you that the risks are there but they would be more likely to be killed on the highways before dying in a plane crash.

Jim

Hey Jaguar66! That video is of the Briteling aerobatic crew at the red and white dead line near the west end of the airfield...I was about 100 yards east of them near the V.I.P. lounge and next to the unlimited pit area. The Gold race always start from there on the ramp for start up. Golfcarts are the mode of transportation around the airfield... since it's over 3 miles long, and my golf cart was parked across from Jimmy Leeward's plane before start up. The "Rare Bear" crew was parked next to me on my right and "Strega" crew was on my left. All of them had telementry computers and radios in their little golfcarts and we could hear somewhat of what the pilots are saying during the race. The crew For Jimmy also had the same equipment too but was down the ramp a few yards away and could not hear anything.

Jim

dnjan said:

I believe the radio also mentioned that there had been modifications including changing the dimensions of the wings to try to make the plane faster. I could understand how modifying one part could change the stress on another ...

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This was what I was going to say too. Once a person starts messing with the original mechanics of the plane, you know you are in for trouble.

Five feet of wing was cut off either side - getting rid of 10 foot of wingspan and then having to cut back on elevators and ailerons and such, on a relatively small plane, just sounds nuts to me from the get-go.

Thanks for the info jbmilart!

It's all about speed! They have been modifying these planes for years with very good results... for over 45 years! If you take computers out of the modern jet fighters and bombers and airliners... you would not have a very stable flying platform...in fact they would not fly at all! These aircraft, albeit world war two vintage... have been built from the ground up and are no longer representing the intended originial design. Extensively tested and scrutinized by aeronautical engineers and the FAA. Thats why the FAA gives these planes an "Experimental" designation and can be flown only in limited air space by highly specialized and trained pilots. Most of these pilots are military trained in very high performance aircraft and go through very extensive medical exams including eye hand coordination and G stress tests...no matter what their ages are, they all go through these tests. Bob Hoover lost his medical to perform high G aerobatics at the age of 84! Although he could still perform these aerobatics...as long as there was a co-pilot on board with him.

Jim

A.C. Lyles said:

The problem with pilots of that age is not their ability to operate the aircraft but the likelihood of them having a medical incident while in flight. Face it, when you get up there in age you can stroke out at any moment, whether flying a plane or tying your shoes. I vaguely recall Chuck Yeager expressing the same in an interview some time ago.

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That's exactly what happened on August 31, 1986 when a light plane collided with an Aeromexico DC-9 over Cerritos, CA. While the light plane crashed into an empty schoolyard (it was on a Sunday) the airliner went down in a residential neighborhood killing some 80 people (including several on the ground). It seemed that the pilot of the light plane suffered a heart attack causing him to lose control of the plane. He wasn't even supposed to be in that particular airspace as he had deviated from the flight plan by taking a shortcut to save fuel.

As of today... the NTSB has a theory that Jimmy's seat failed and collapsed sending him backwards into the cockpit...which would explain the photos of not seeing him through the canopy as the plane was going down. Laying down on your back, straped down to a seat that is no longer upright and with the G forces flying at full power at over 425 m.p.h., would explain a lot of why Jimmy could not regain control of the aircraft. Jimmy was not a big man...probably about 5' 5" and could not possibly reach the controls and correct the aircraft flight path in the 25 seconds he had left to fly. That would also explain why the tail wheel was in the down position as the actuator for the tail wheel is directly behind and below the pilot seat.

Jim

A.C. Lyles said:

The problem with pilots of that age is not their ability to operate the aircraft but the likelihood of them having a medical incident while in flight. Face it, when you get up there in age you can stroke out at any moment, whether flying a plane or tying your shoes. I vaguely recall Chuck Yeager expressing the same in an interview some time ago.

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Its not so much the age that causes strokes. There has to be pre existing disease. Strokes can occur in young females (caused by vascular disease related to BC pills). There are a lot of variables here, namely those that lead to vascular disease. Diabetes, obesity, genetics etc. Hopefully pilots are screened for these pre-existing diseases, and weeded out if conditions warrant.

Jaguar66 said:

Its not so much the age that causes strokes. .

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And yet 75% of strokes occur to those age 65 and older. Spare me you pedantry.

jbmilart said:

As of today... the NTSB has a theory that Jimmy's seat failed and collapsed sending him backwards into the cockpit...which would explain the photos of not seeing him through the canopy as the plane was going down. Laying down on your back, straped down to a seat that is no longer upright and with the G forces flying at full power at over 425 m.p.h., would explain a lot of why Jimmy could not regain control of the aircraft. Jimmy was not a big man...probably about 5' 5" and could not possibly reach the controls and correct the aircraft flight path in the 25 seconds he had left to fly. That would also explain why the tail wheel was in the down position as the actuator for the tail wheel is directly behind and below the pilot seat.

Jim

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That would account for a lot of what is seen in the footage and still shots of the aircraft!