End of Manual-Transmission Era - Honda Accord

tonyb said:

Back in my British sports car days I was a faithful reader of Practical Classics, a British rag devoted to the care and feeding of lower-end collectible vintage cars.

But limey cars weren’t such an unusual sight back then. The cars were of recent enough vintage that many were still in regular use. You could buy a decent enough example for what a workman might knock down in a month.

That was then. Now I can’t recall when I last saw an MGA or a TR3 on the road, and I’m the sort who would notice. But then, we’re talking 50- and 60- and 70-year-old cars, not 20- and 30- and 40-year-old cars.

Sometimes it seems all the best cars are owned by all the wrong people, while the people who might appreciate the things as something more than another layer of attire are priced out.

As to “retro” rides ...

I like some styles that give a nod to their forebears. The Ford Mustang body style introduced in the 2005 model year has a clean, elegant line that strongly echoes the early years of the ’stang. (Subsequent body style changes did it no favors, to my eye.) But no one would mistake it for a ’65. It is (or was) a modern car. GM’s aim at the same market segment, the retro Chevy Camaro, just doesn’t do it for me.

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My nephew and his father in law are rebuilding a 1952 MGTD or TC ....I think is the designation. They bought it as boxes of parts and a body. It was initially going to be a frame off restoration but the guy gave up and sold them boxes of parts and most of the body. It was going to be for my nephew but they have now decided due to the slow speed at which they work it will be for my nephew's 3 year old when he comes of age.

Zombie_61 said:

Except for that horrid Mustang II that Ford produced in the mid- to late-1970s, I've been a Mustang fan from day one. Still, for me that ends with the 2008 model because to my eyes every incarnation after that moved farther and farther away from the original concept just as the Mustang II had.

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My wife owned an 1985 when they were in their compact car phase. It was a great little car. We gave it up after 18 years as parts were either too expensive or too hard to find.

Zombie_61 said:

Except for that horrid Mustang II that Ford produced in the mid- to late-1970s, I've been a Mustang fan from day one. Still, for me that ends with the 2008 model because to my eyes every incarnation after that moved farther and farther away from the original concept just as the Mustang II had.

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I concur. After the ’08 model year they got gaudier. The latest ones ain’t so bad, though.

I’ve considered getting an ’05 through ’08, decent examples of which can be had pretty cheap, especially the six-bangers. They’ll comfortably go the speed limit and well above it all day long anyway. I suspect that in another 15 or 20 years those model years will be the more sought-after.

belfastboy said:

My nephew and his father in law are rebuilding a 1952 MGTD or TC ....I think is the designation. They bought it as boxes of parts and a body. It was initially going to be a frame off restoration but the guy gave up and sold them boxes of parts and most of the body. It was going to be for my nephew but they have now decided due to the slow speed at which they work it will be for my nephew's 3 year old when he comes of age.

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A ’52 model would be a TD. The earlier TC’s are more desirable (those 19-inch wheels, versus 15’s on the TD, made a pretty big difference in its appearance).

That car of theirs is about as simple and and straightforward as a tractor of the same vintage. It’s not that there aren’t things to know about the work ahead of them, but I’m confident that anyone who knows which end of the wrench to use could do it.

tonyb said:

A ’52 model would be a TD. The earlier TC’s are more desirable (those 19-inch wheels, versus 15’s on the TD, made a pretty big difference in its appearance).

That car of theirs is about as simple and and straightforward as a tractor of the same vintage. It’s not that there aren’t things to know about the work ahead of them, but I’m confident that anyone who knows which end of the wrench to use could do it.

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Yeh, the father in law has done many restorations....part of it receiving it all unlabeled in random boxes....and of course finding the time.

Milage? If you dropped my 3 on the tree 304 CJ7 from a C130 with the engine off i doubt you'd get better than 15mpg. If you didn't get right into traffic after a fill up you would just back up to the pump again and top off. Loved it.
But I digress.
Tom D.

tonyb said:

Back in my British sports car days I was a faithful reader of Practical Classics, a British rag devoted to the care and feeding of lower-end collectible vintage cars.

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Remember it well - I grew up reading my dad's old ones lying in the bathroom. I credit it with the surprising amount I realise I know about British cars from the postwar to early eighties period, despite thinking of my self as a 'non-car' person. (I last drove on 8th February 1999, the night before I took a one-way flight to London to take up a new job.)

Saw a copy on sale recently and got a bit of a shock when realising half the cars on the cover were contemporary motors when I last saw it regularly twenty years ago!

But limey cars weren’t such an unusual sight back then. The cars were of recent enough vintage that many were still in regular use. You could buy a decent enough example for what a workman might knock down in a month.

That was then. Now I can’t recall when I last saw an MGA or a TR3 on the road, and I’m the sort who would notice. But then, we’re talking 50- and 60- and 70-year-old cars, not 20- and 30- and 40-year-old cars.

Sometimes it seems all the best cars are owned by all the wrong people, while the people who might appreciate the things as something more than another layer of attire are priced out.

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As with so many things in life! It's easy to forget that so much time has passed, making them rarer and more delicate; maybe a good third of any classic or vintage car model I ever knew of were 'donor' cars for a restoration of a tidier one. Then there were those that were "customised". I remember that a lot in the eighties - post war, sit up and beg Fords with V8s and sprayed bright orange or bright red... not sympathetically, period hot rods, but basically using the bodyshell and chassis to build something wholly different... don't seem to see those around the same now, and the once common cars that they were based on in original form are now markedly rarer. A lot of cars that would now be very collectable were used, post MOT failure, as a donor during the kit car boom. Ford Cortinas in Mk II & III spec I remember being common donors, and especially Triumph Heralds in the 13/60 spec. Beetles, too.

In terms of the passage of time, what shocked me recently was a memory of a schoolteacher telling a couple of us young punks we were "ten years too late" when we discovered the Sex Pistols in 1988. And now their album is forty-two years old.... and folks are restoring 1980s Quattros and Mk IV Cortinas.... even the early VW Golfs have become pricey over here. I remember when they were readily dismissed as not "real" VWs because they were water-cooled, FWD, and the engine was at the wrong end!

As to “retro” rides ...

I like some styles that give a nod to their forebears. The Ford Mustang body style introduced in the 2005 model year has a clean, elegant line that strongly echoes the early years of the ’stang. (Subsequent body style changes did it no favors, to my eye.) But no one would mistake it for a ’65. It is (or was) a modern car. GM’s aim at the same market segment, the retro Chevy Camaro, just doesn’t do it for me.

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For me, not many go far enough. The Nissan Figaro (1989-91, I think) was a good example of doing retro "right" - it had a real look of something early sixties and French. Most of them , for my tastes, just don't go far enough. The Pt Cruiser was a nice idea, but they seemed to go some way and then chicken out, leaving it a bit neither fish nor fowl. I've seen a fair few customised versions among the rockabilly set though that really gave it an old-school look that worked. Such a shame they were built that way... too much extra tooling and cost, maybe.

I liked the Mustang in Breaking Bad!

tonyb said:

A ’52 model would be a TD. The earlier TC’s are more desirable (those 19-inch wheels, versus 15’s on the TD, made a pretty big difference in its appearance).

That car of theirs is about as simple and and straightforward as a tractor of the same vintage. It’s not that there aren’t things to know about the work ahead of them, but I’m confident that anyone who knows which end of the wrench to use could do it.

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Makes me wonder if the idea of old cars as hobby will disappear with cars after a certain age, given for so many enthusiasts the joy is in being able to work on them.

VW Golf I & II:
"Lifespan? Look at the bottom plate."

That's already happening. People I know who are involved in operating auctions for old cars tell me that the market has cratered across the board. The rising generation has no particular interest in cars except as utilitarian transportation, and increasingly not even as that. Once the boomers are gone, that's the end of it.

Anyone who buys an old car as "an investment" in 2020 is, to be blunt, a sucker and a sap. But then, anybody who buys any car from any era in any year as "an investment" is a sucker and a sap.

I embarked on the restoration of a '52 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 2-door sedan in the 90s. It was wrecked (several times), had been rolled, had a slightly twisted frame and a missing front clip. Over about three years of spare time and a whole lot of household cash I had NO business spending, I got it to the point of being mechanically ready, with a recently rebuilt correct engine, my own hydramatic rebuild (learned a LOT), entirely new fuel system, new steering from box to horn, all new wiring, new front end, new salvaged body panels and chrome, reupholstered seats, new headliner, floor mats, blah blah blah. It was in primer and... lost my storage. I have no idea how much I spent out of pocket, but I sold it for under $2k, via eBay, no choice. I never drove the stupid thing an inch.
It hurt for awhile, but I will never, ever, no matter how much time or money I may have, start down that road again. It eats your life and leaves you raped and freezin'. A giant waste of time obsessing over something when I should have had my butt at home playing with my children. The money would have moved us to a nicer house.
I still have all the literature to supply the front and back end of a 1952 Olds dealership. I once had all the special tools required for the service department.
I won't even go to to a car show anymore. Just makes me mad at myself.

An

LizzieMaine said:

That's already happening. People I know who are involved in operating auctions for old cars tell me that the market has cratered across the board. The rising generation has no particular interest in cars except as utilitarian transportation, and increasingly not even as that. Once the boomers are gone, that's the end of it.

Anyone who buys an old car as "an investment" in 2020 is, to be blunt, a sucker and a sap. But then, anybody who buys any car from any era in any year as "an investment" is a sucker and a sap.

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And especially in countries as German, where car-driving is basically expensive, there's no market for oldtimers. The 90s are over.

LizzieMaine said:

That's already happening. People I know who are involved in operating auctions for old cars tell me that the market has cratered across the board. The rising generation has no particular interest in cars except as utilitarian transportation, and increasingly not even as that. Once the boomers are gone, that's the end of it.

Anyone who buys an old car as "an investment" in 2020 is, to be blunt, a sucker and a sap. But then, anybody who buys any car from any era in any year as "an investment" is a sucker and a sap.

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You know, I peeked at a Hemmings a few months ago to look at truck prices expecting to find obscene bargains, and was really shocked. You could get a 46 Chevy 1/2 ton not that long ago for about $5,000 in great shape. Now they're $30,000 plus. Who is buying them?
I've seen the market for just about anything "old" (including our vintage clothes) just plummet in recent years. Last month, I bought a 1926 Victrola Credenza, Victor's top of the line, last-hoorah acoustic machine, for less than $100 at auction. I never expected to have one at any price. And I've been trying to unload two sets of dishes for months without a bite. I'm down to about $20 for each full set. No takers. Someone asked me about the sugar bowl and I sent that, the salt & peppers, and the creamer to them for $10. I ended up making 14 cents after shipping.
I just bought several 20's jazz 78s I never expected to find, let alone own. Chump change. And the impossible to find Tungs-Tone needles for my Credenza? Found four unopened tins on Etsy and paid under $10 for all of them.
Remember those solver plated Revere bowls everyone got as wedding presents? I must have seven of them, all picked up for a buck or two. They make great candy dishes.
It is a grand time to buy all those things that were out of reach 20 years ago, but you're doing nothing but burdening your heirs, who will have to sell the stuff for even less, or worse, pitch it all.
Know what brings out the pocket book for young people? Vinyl records.

And winter-salt ruins all cars.

There's still a few "iconic" vehicles that'll bring big dollars -- or that people will *ask* big dollars for, but that's no guarantee they'll actually get such prices. Take a look at any auction and see how many of these types of cars "failed to meet reserve." What kid born in 1988 has any "nostalgic" connection to a 75-year-old truck that would ever prompt them to cough up 30 G's for it?

Which brings up a key point. Any "collectible" based on "nostalgia" is a very poor investment, because nostalgia is a highly perishable commodity. With few exceptions, pre-WWII stuff has essentially no value beyond the value of actually using it for its intended purpose because the generation that had "nostalgic" memories of it and boosted its prices in the '60s and '70s is almost entirely extinct.

I paid $6000 for my Plodge eight years ago, but I've been told by multiple experts that I'd be lucky to get half that now. It's not a "valuable antique," it's a 79-year-old used car. And I'm perfectly fine with that. In the time I've owned it I've gotten value out of it that has nothing to do with money.

The US-car fans here in Germany now drive mostly newer pick-up trucks. You see no more Cadillac, Mustang, Chevy or whatever. Who wants to sink his money in high-aged fuel-annihilators?

Edward said:

...
Makes me wonder if the idea of old cars as hobby will disappear with cars after a certain age, given for so many enthusiasts the joy is in being able to work on them.

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Nothing lasts forever.

The magic of old things, especially old things with questionable intrinsic value, is entirely in the head of the beholder.

Yes, an old car is still a car, which can still be driven to the supermarket. So it’s good for that. But rare is the collectible vintage automobile routinely put to such a use.

If old cars routinely transport their owners anywhere, it’s to an earlier time in their lives. The cars people — men, mostly — cherished when they were young and impressionable tend to reach their peak value when those people are getting on in years. Those people want to grab a piece of the magic those vehicles sparked in them when they were kids. And when those people die off, so does the market for the things of their youth, typically.

I’ve read that getting one’s driver’s license and a set of wheels at age 16 isn’t the rite of passage it once was. This doesn’t bode well for the future of the vintage car culture.

^^^^
I’ve also read that people of immediately subsequent generations often find magic in the artifacts of their parents’ and grandparents’ early years. If not for that, it’s doubtful this online community would exist.

But then, many of the material goods of my parents’ and grandparents’ early years were still in regular use when I was a youngster. That stuff wasn’t “vintage” or “collectible.” It was just the stuff we used pretty much daily.

Further, I’ve read that the market for ’60s-vintage furniture and household goods and such is driven mostly by people who weren’t alive then. It’s the stuff they remember their parents and grandparents using.

Quite true. When you see something around you as a kid, it becomes the default form of that object in your mind. A "telephone" can evolve into futuristic forms, but if the one you knew when you were three years old was a heavy black thing made out of metal, that's the image that will always come to mind first when you hear the word. But that form will never carry the same meaning to someone who never experienced it as part of daily life.

LizzieMaine said:

...

I paid $6000 for my Plodge eight years ago, but I've been told by multiple experts that I'd be lucky to get half that now. It's not a "valuable antique," it's a 79-year-old used car. And I'm perfectly fine with that. In the time I've owned it I've gotten value out of it that has nothing to do with money.

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That’s not unusual.

Circa 1965 the Old Man paid 10 bucks and a fifth of whiskey for a ’40-something Mopar. It was an olive drab sorta color which we called “the tank.” My sister hated being seen in it.

I trust there are still enough people around with similar memories that a market for such cars still exists. But we’re dying off.

But, as you note, markets are fickle, and the unexpected still happens.

Not that it would matter much to me or you, but my guess is that surviving examples of 70-plus-year-old cars, especially the better-looking ones, will increase in value in a few years, mostly because they are becoming rare. And great style is great style, no matter its vintage. Your old car is a handsome devil, and it always will be. This may be a good time to buy.

tonyb said:

... an old car is still a car, which can still be driven to the supermarket. So it’s good for that. But rare is the collectible vintage automobile routinely put to such a use.

...

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Rare but not unheard of.

This morning, as I spied this ’55 Chevy pickup, its owner, a 70-ish fellow, showed up with his cart full of groceries. We chatted for a few minutes.

He’s had the truck for 40 years. About 30 years ago he put in the 350 Chevy engine, automatic tranny, front suspension, brakes, steering, etc. out of wrecked ’78 Camaro. (That was, and is, a common setup. You take the later Chevy front stub frame and pretty much everything attached to it, and graft it on to the original frame.)

He’s driven it all over the country.