Can you date these for me? 2 Suits: 1 DB 1930s, 1 SB 1940s?

[J. M. Stovall]

See? Now that is why I never change my avatar. Its memorable.
Yeah that too.

fftopic: I still remember your 3-D soldier and waving flag avatar from when I first joined .

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Dat's some cool fabric. And for the era quite strange. Is that fading to the trousers, or staining, or just surface dirt? Pity.

By the way, try buttoning the jacket on the lower button only. I reckon this one is supposed to roll from the bottom button. It just doesn't look right with the right nipple cover partially hidden and the left one fully exposed. I think that fastening on the lower button will lead the belly of the lapel to partially obscure the left nipple cover also, providing symmetry . . . Upon which inner buttonhole does it fasten?

The manufacturers label is very typical for the 1930s.

bk

 

[Martina]

NO Fading... no no no

Hi Baron!
We actually had some sun here in Syracuse, so what you are seeing on the pants is actually from the window (I was trying not to use the camera's flash totally). Anyway, if you look, the same pattern is on the pants no matter which way they were held: front, side, upside down. So, no fading

Hey, you were right about the jacket. I unbuttoned the top button because the roll goes all the way down to the second button and took a picture, when I first did the post. I didn't list it because I thought it was buttoned incorrectly and didn't wanna catch flack for icking up the nice suit!
So here it is (I had to swipe it out of my recycle bin!)

If I am understanding your question correctly, the right lapel fastens inside to the TOP buttonhole. There are two buttonholes on the right side of the jacket (the bottom button is missing from the inside of the jacket). The top one is right ON the lapel and the second is below. The inside button hits that ROLLED lapel, so you actually button it through to the back of the lapel (or to the right side of the jacket. Gosh, I hope that makes sense. Sorry, that photo actually made it to BEING recycled.

Thanks for your all help Baron!
~Martina~

 

[frontmanvintage]

A little help

I agree that the first suit is 60's.

As for the blue suit: metal zip would more than likely be post WWII; lapels were all widths in all decades; but the dating clincher for me is the shoulder lining. 1/3 back linings began in the early 50's; before that were the little shoulder petals or full linings, depending on the cost and if it were tailored vs. off the rack. So, I'm saying early to mid 50's on your DB.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I am not picking on you . . .

With that caveat (see ^) in mind:

As for the blue suit: metal zip would more than likely be post WWII;

Not so. Talon introduced the hookless fastener for menswear in the early 30s. It quickly became popular with OTR and MTM companies due to low cost of insertion compared to buttons, and was a smash hit with consumers who liked the ease of closing, lack of 'gape' etc. compared to button flies. By the middle 30s it had surpassed the button fly Re: number of suits bearing the Talon.

1/3 back linings began in the early 50's; before that were the little shoulder petals or full linings, depending on the cost and if it were tailored vs. off the rack. So, I'm saying early to mid 50's on your DB.

Not so. Many MTM and OTR companies offered a number of lining styles, to be chosen by the customer. I have at least two (most of my wardrobe is thousands of miles away, but the one i wore yesterday has this lining style)30s suits with exactly this lining, and a few with full linings, though the minimal shoulder lining was indeed most popular.

Again: this rant is not directed at you specifically. I am trying to dispel myths that get bandied around (the zip = post WWII is very common, and plain WRONG for MTM and OTR - bespoke is a different story).

I'm just waiting for someone to say that Oxford bags were "typically more than 30" at the cuff".

bk

 

[Fletch]

Speaking of bags...

...not Oxford tho; perhaps Big Ten ...here's what the bankers on the campus were wearing in '33. From the acclaimed auld house of Sneers & Rubbish.

22" bottoms. (These should really have been worn with freshman beanies to complete the effect.)
Note that the waistbands are ultra deep and worn beltless. Trou had side buckles.
Many fabrics are "half wool" or "quarter wool" and rayon. Or if they don't specify rayon, maybe that slurry of lint and old newspapers they made cheap blankets out of.
Note that the pair on the right is "Notre Dame Corduroy" - camel tan or royal blue, with a 3" (3 button!!) waistband. Would have fit in nicely in the Peacock Revolt 35 years later, worn lo-rise and minus the cuffs.

We now return you to Date That Suit, already in progress...if you call this "progress."

 

[frontmanvintage]

Back to zippers

I was speaking in generalities on what I said about the jacket linings, and the most of what I have is Union Made, not Custom Tailored.

As for zippers: Paraphrased from The Esquire Book of Mens Fashion History -

It was not until the 1930's that the fastener with two sides that came completely apart was used on the flies of men's trousers. But the acceptance of the zipper was slow; Custom tailors held that the zipper could have no place in a gentleman's wardrobe.

And there was, worst of all, the matter of price. Two Cents would buy the buttons for a pair of trousers. To a depression-time suit, designed to retail for about $35 with two pairs of trousers, one dollar had to be added to the price if fasteners were used. It seemed absurd to talk of adding significantly to the expense of producing such a garment.

Engineering experts were working to improve both the fastener and the means of applying it to trousers. Union resisted the fasteners because it created issued about training for the new tasks, piecework rates and other matters.

Finally in 1937, Hart Schaffner & Marx and B. Kuppenheimer launched an $800,000 campaign for advertising their garments with the new fastener. But they still put out about 50% of their line with buttons.

And, we all know that for the most part Uncle Sam used buttons in mens clothing during WWII because of the cost. Even womens clothing didn't really utilize zippers until after the war.

Exceptions: Even after the war, mens motorcycle pants, riding pants, baseball pants, and other sports related venues retained button flies. Heck, even 'ol Levi Strauss kept button flies on his jeans.

So, basing my statements on the above information, a mens pair of trousers with a zip would be extremely rare prior to 1937, and maybe had a 30% of having a zip prior to 1945.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

^^ Highlighting part of the problem. I cannot understand for the life of me why Esquire, of all people, would propagate this version of the zipper story. Indeed, copies of Esquire and Apparel Arts of the mid 30s give exactly the opposite information. I have handled literally hundreds of 1930s-early 1940s suits - from OTR to bespoke. Of the OTR and MTM suits - mostly union made - fully 80% (a guesstimate) of them had Talon zippers. The rest had buttons. The bespoke suits invariably had buttons, as is my experience with modern bespoke suits. I'd appreciate the impressions of others who have handled significant numbers of 1930s-40s vintage American trousers.

Is it possible that for some reason suits with the Talon fastener survived better than suits with buttons? I would think not.

I suppose what this thread shows us is that without a dated tailors tag, we're all just guessing. There is no sure way to date a suit fro photographs. If i had the thing in my hands i could probably get a better idea of a date.

bk

 

[Fletch]

^^ Highlighting part of the problem. I cannot understand for the life of me why Esquire, of all people, would propagate this version of the zipper story. Indeed, copies of Esquire and Apparel Arts of the mid 30s give exactly the opposite information.

Just maybe, a possible clue:
I interned at Esquire one summer during college. I was much taken with what I'd seen of the mag in its Arnold Gingrich years, not only the classic clothesways featured, but the good short fiction, travel reporting, etc. Unfortunately, when I expressed interest in all that, I was told never to mention it to the editor. He didn't like being reminded of the history, in part because Esquire was floundering somewhat in the market at the time and comparisons were thought to reflect poorly on present day management.

 

[frontmanvintage]

more zips

The Hookless Fastener Company changed its name to Talon, Inc. in 1937.

So maybe you mean zip, not Talon zip.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Incidentally, hookless fasteners were often called slide fasteners in the 1930s.

.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I'd appreciate the impressions of others who have handled significant numbers of 1930s-40s vintage American trousers.

You rang?

I agree with BK. I, too, have handled hundreds of 1930s trousers in the past 25 years. Around 70% of them have had zippers (manufactured by Talon in nearly every case).


The point is that zippers did exist in the '30s, and they were put into some, if not many, trousers. Therefore, it is at least possible for Martina's blue DB suit to be from the 1930s or early '40s. Based on the cut and the fabric, I believe that it is.

.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

The product of the Hookless Fastener Company designed for use in trousers had the name Talon imprinted on the zip-pull from 1932 onwards. This from 1933:

bk

 

[Martina]

Well Baron, I guess that's that!
Except for this...
I got this info from the Vintage Fashion Guild site -http://www.vintagefashionguild.org/content/view/750/196/

Metal zippers were used in galoshes and elsewhere since 1905, not used in men's pants until 1927 or on women’s dresses until the late 1930’s.


YKK - Japan, a zipper company founded in Japan in 1934.


Talon Zippers - USA - since 1894.


Lightning Zippers- Canada.


Eclaire Zippers- France.


KIN Zippers - Germany.


Coil zippers - invented in 1940, but not in common usage until the early 60’s.


Side seam zippers - late 1930’s-1960’s.


Short CB neck zippers - mostly 1930’s-1940’s.


Sleeve zippers - 1930’s and 1940’s.

I had NO idea the the YKK zips were so old! Now, if I could just find some definitive info on those SLIDES at the top of the zippers!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

i've found the vintage fashion guild to be a very hit and miss. I mean, just that page would suggest that button flies ENDED in the 1940s.

I ahve a pair that was made yesterday with a button fly. [huh]

As always with the internet: Reader beware!

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I officially date this suit (the blue diamond weave DB) to 1937 or thereabouts. In "Everyday fashions of the 1930s, as pictured in the Sears catalogue" page 98, this fabric is featured.

bk

 

[Orgetorix]

I officially date this suit (the blue diamond weave DB) to 1937 or thereabouts. In "Everyday fashions of the 1930s, as pictured in the Sears catalogue" page 98, this fabric is featured.

bk

Do you have a link or a scan of that?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

it's on the way. Need to ge my scanner set up again.

bk