hat boxes

[cool hat]

I've seen older hats with oval shaped or round boxes and newer 50's hats with square boxes. Is it possible to date a hat box by it's shape?

 

[Topdog]

I have two hat boxes from Vintage Silhouettes (you should check them out!) circa 2009/2009 that are oval.

By the way, welcome to the forum.

 

[Feraud]

Considering how easy it is to switch hats between boxes I would say the most accurate way to date a hat is by the hat itself.

 

[ScottF]

Considering how easy it is to switch hats between boxes I would say the most accurate way to date a hat is by the hat itself.

What if you were positive that the box and hat went together? And the hat was made by a company that used both oval and octagonal boxes. Was there a period in time when companies started making that switch? Did some companies use both shapes at the same time? Just curious.

What about the straps? The other day I saw a hat that was with its original box (there are cases when I think you can trust what the owner says, or at least use it as a starting point for dating), and the box was octagonal and had thin leather straps that looked cheap. Certainly if the box was oval and had thicker leather straps, I would think the hat inside was older. But do we have any idea when such changes in design occurred?

I know there's probably a thread on this somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it...so I'll tag along on this one.

 

[Feraud]

What if you were positive that the box and hat went together?

For sake of discussion I would ask what would be absolute proof to anyone that a certain hat and box were purchased together? More importantly what proof is there that the hat and box were stored together for the last 40 some odd years...
As a personal observation I put my hats in any available box.
I see little reason in dating a hat by box when it is more accurate to date the hat itself. Here is one such resource -
Identifying early hats by sweatband: A Guide

And the hat was made by a company that used both oval and octagonal boxes. Was there a period in time when companies started making that switch? Did some companies use both shapes at the same time? Just curious.

What about the straps? The other day I saw a hat that was with its original box (there are cases when I think you can trust what the owner says, or at least use it as a starting point for dating), and the box was octagonal and had thin leather straps that looked cheap. Certainly if the box was oval and had thicker leather straps, I would think the hat inside was older. But do we have any idea when such changes in design occurred?

I know there's probably a thread on this somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it...so I'll tag along on this one.

This might be a case of apples and oranges.

I would separate a discussion on dating hats, dating boxes, and not find much value in dating hats from their current boxes.

 

[ScottF]

For sake of discussion I would ask what would be absolute proof to anyone that a certain hat and box were purchased together? More importantly what proof is there that the hat and box were stored together for the last 40 some odd years...
As a personal observation I put my hats in any available box.
I see little reason in dating a hat by box when it is more accurate to date the hat itself. Here is one such resource -
Identifying early hats by sweatband: A Guide



This might be a case of apples and oranges.

I would separate a discussion on dating hats, dating boxes, and not find much value in dating hats from their current boxes.

That's all good and fine, but the original post in this thread was asking if a BOX could be dated by its shape. I'm curious about that as well, so perhaps someone has thoughts on this. As you point out, there are threads all over the place about dating hats by their characteristics, but this thread is about dating boxes.

 

[Inusuit]

Free advice is usually worth the price.

My knowledge is limited, my opinions not so much. I believe that early Stetson hat boxes were round or oval, while later boxes up to the present are square. However, there are differences in design and colors that occur within each shape. I've got a fairly worthless book called Stetson Hats and the John B. Stetson Hat Company: 1865-1970 that has some interesting pictures of Stetson boxes. The older round ones seem to be light tan with black printing, later round ones got colorful. There is a picture that claims to be from 1965 showing rectangular boxes, but the book has so many other factual errors that I wouldn't put much stock in it. Also, it appears that more expensive hats may have been shipped in better boxes. So, I think the answer to the OP's question is that shape is one and only one indication of the date of the box.

 

[Feraud]

That's all good and fine, but the original post in this thread was asking if a BOX could be dated by its shape. I'm curious about that as well, so perhaps someone has thoughts on this. As you point out, there are threads all over the place about dating hats by their characteristics, but this thread is about dating boxes.

The original post was just edited.
My earlier comments were in answer to the question of dating hats based on their boxes.

 

[ScottF]

My knowledge is limited, my opinions not so much. I believe that early Stetson hat boxes were round or oval, while later boxes up to the present are square. However, there are differences in design and colors that occur within each shape. I've got a fairly worthless book called Stetson Hats and the John B. Stetson Hat Company: 1865-1970 that has some interesting pictures of Stetson boxes. The older round ones seem to be light tan with black printing, later round ones got colorful. There is a picture that claims to be from 1965 showing rectangular boxes, but the book has so many other factual errors that I wouldn't put much stock in it. Also, it appears that more expensive hats may have been shipped in better boxes. So, I think the answer to the OP's question is that shape is one and only one indication of the date of the box.

I was really glad to see the original poster start this thread - realizing, as Feraud pointed out, that over 40-70 years the odds of a hat being in its original box are slim, and that characteristics of the hat are of course the only way to date the hat itself ... still, if you have ever seen the variety of box designs, labels and shapes piled up at antique stores, the question of box evolution has got to cross your mind...especially when the shop has ONLY boxes, and no hats

Another reason it's of interest to me is that I have a few hats that don't fit me, so I thought it would be a good idea to pick up a $5-10 box for use when re-selling. As noted, while I could easily buy a 1940 Dobbs box for a 1960 Dobbs hat, I would much prefer to have the knowledge to match them more closely by age.

 

[Lefty]

fftopic:
Shipping a hat in a hat box (within a container box) usually adds quite a bit to postage due to the increased volume. Shipping a hat just in a smaller container box - properly wrapped, of course - will often save around $10.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

A hat box is just a box. They could be any shape from any era. Boxes can be dated, of course, but i would be wary of assigning a date to a hat because of the bos it's in for the reasons stated above. Unless the hat had a note in it saying "this hat has always lived in this box".

Dobbs, for example, used their famous octagonal box for the longest time.

fftopic:
Shipping a hat in a hat box (within a container box) usually adds quite a bit to postage due to the increased volume. Shipping a hat just in a smaller container box - properly wrapped, of course - will often save around $10.

That's right. And i dont see any evidence that the presence of a box increases the end price of a hat by much. But old hat boxes are ridiculously expensive in the UK. Utterly unbelievable. Apparently people use them as decorative home furnishings, and this is pushing the prices up. [huh]

bk

 

[ScottF]

fftopic:
Shipping a hat in a hat box (within a container box) usually adds quite a bit to postage due to the increased volume. Shipping a hat just in a smaller container box - properly wrapped, of course - will often save around $10.

What's off-topic?

Cool hat, I'll dig around and if I find out anything additional I'll let you know via PM.

 

[Lefty]

You're not off-topic - I am. My post was about shipping, not dating hat boxes. When throwing out a subject that isn't quite on the subject of the thread, it's common to post that little guy. I don't know why he needs to look so sour about related conversations.

(BTW, this post was also fftopic

 

[ScottF]

You're not off-topic - I am. My post was about shipping, not dating hat boxes. When throwing out a subject that isn't quite on the subject of the thread, it's common to post that little guy. I don't know why he needs to look so sour about related conversations.

(BTW, this post was also fftopic

That's good to know - I tend to jump in headfirst when I find an area of historical interest, so wanted to make sure. The shipping thoughts are really good to know. Unlike others who probably have more room, there's just none to speak of at my place - they hang on the wall or I stack them.

 

[Brad Bowers]

This image is from 1924, and you can see several variations in box styles. In general, it seems the ovals are earlier, at least with C&K, Dobbs, and Cavanagh, with octagons and squares being more prevalent later, but that's just what I've noticed, it's not based on any hard evidence. I haven't even begun to research their boxes, as the hats themselves hold more interest for me right now.

Brad

 

[tonyb]

But old hat boxes are ridiculously expensive in the UK. Utterly unbelievable. Apparently people use them as decorative home furnishings, and this is pushing the prices up. [huh]

bk

Vintage hatboxes can fetch quite a bit out here as well.

Pure speculation here, but it seems likely that in your typical antique/vintage shop old hatboxes would gather as much or more interest (if not money) than the vintage hats themselves. They're good for storing a wide variety of stuff, and they've long had a certain "shabby chic" appeal.

Me, I store hats in 'em.

 

[barrowjh]

Sales Staff

It should be obvious, but maybe should mention that there is no guarantee the hat left the store in the same brand box. Check out Hatco retailers today (sellers of Stetson, Dobbs, Resistol) - their inventory does not arrive in separate boxes. The inventory arrives often stacked multiples to a container, and they have stacks of flat boxes also. So, if you were ready to walk out with your new Stetson hat, and the salesman said they were out of Stetson boxes, but here is a perfectly good Dobbs box we can snap together, would you demand your money back or walk out with a Stetson hat and a Dobbs box? Or, a Borsalino hat and a Dobbs box? btw, this would apply to any retailer, any brand.

I wonder why there are so few Borsalino and Barbisio boxes relative to the numbers of those hats available on OFAS; I suspect that few were willing to pay extra for an imported cardboard box, so could it be that many imported hats left the retailer in American branded (or generic) boxes?