Lighting both ends of the candle; Juan Peron

[Lincsong]

Since we had such a lively discussion on the Spanish Civil War. Are there any Europeans out there who know about Argentina's Dynamic Duo; Juan and Evita Peron? The country is still reeling from the economic destruction these two fools created. Are there any Argentinian Loungers who would like to defend them?:cheers1:

 

[Salv]

I'm not Argentinian, and I'm not going to defend the Perons, but do you seriously believe that they are responsible for the current state of Argentinas economy? Argentina was lauded as an economic miracle in the mid 1990's having pegged the value of its peso the the US dollar in 1991. Problems arose in the late 90's - the Brazilian real plummeted in value, but because the peso was tied to the dollar it didn't follow suit, making Argentinian exports far more expensive than Brazilian. Lower world prices for farmed goods and a general global economic slowdown haven't helped either, so I find it difficult to lay the blame for the state of the current Argentinian economy on the Perons. After all Eva Peron died in 1952 and between 1955 and 1973 Juan Peron was in exile; he was re-elected in 1973 but died in office in 1974, so successive non-Peronist governments had plenty of time to implement their own policies. I doubt that Juan Perons final presidency, which only lasted for 10 months in 1973-74 and in which he drifted more and more to the right, had that strong an effect on the economy, and let's not forget that the country had only been governed by Peron for 10 months in the last 50 years.

As for Peron himself it has been years since I've read anything about him, but a quick google refreshed my memory. He espoused a political Third Way, basing his policies on what he considered to be the best aspects of socialism and capitalism. I can only admire his efforts at empowering the Argentinian working classes, and I (personally) have no problem with his anti-clericalism (any move to take power away from the church is to be welcomed), but his repression of rival political beliefs, and his isolationism could only have been dangerous policies.

I also find it hard to accept his admiration of Mussolini to whom he served as a military adviser. Likewise his exile to Francos Spain where he lived peacefully, and by all accounts happily, for many years is at odds with his support of the working classes.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

I am not sure I want to defend them, but I was recently in Argentina and made it a point to visit both of their graves (actually mausoleums) and while Eva's was well-known and touristy, Juan's was in a cemetary much farther out from the center of town and basically ignored. It was sort of an adventure just finding it. Not sure what this says about how Argentines like to remember the two though.

 

[Lincsong]

Excellent starting point

I'm not Argentinian, and I'm not going to defend the Perons, but do you seriously believe that they are responsible for the current state of Argentinas economy? Argentina was lauded as an economic miracle in the mid 1990's having pegged the value of its peso the the US dollar in 1991.

Looking back 100 years ago, the U.S. and Argentina were very similar economically. Both nations were relatively young former colonies of European nations. Unlike Mexico, both were welcoming to immigrants, (though in the U.S. there was a strong anti-immigrant sentiment, but the gates weren't locked until the 1920's) ,industrialization and foreign investment. Both nations, had relatively the same poverty levels (25%) a growing middle class and of course an opulent upper class. What I find intriguing about Argentina is that it is of course a Latin country, but it didn't have large African, Indian or Mestizo populations like Brazil. So it is a predominately Southern European, Roman Catholic nation which was rivaling the Protestant U.S. and Britain in terms of economic muscle. Even up to 1932 Argentina and the U.S. were the No. 1 and No. 2 economies in the Western Hemisphere. Then along came Juan and Evita and their fascist policies. Sure, they advocated for the poor, but at what cost to the economy? Peron preached econonic nationalism. He was going to kick the British out and run the rail lines by the Argentinians. Argentina is today a basket case, it is no different than other Latin American Countries. There is a 60% poverty rate. It has the unenvious position as being a formerly industrialized nation. It was this fascist mindset that Juan and Evita formented that is still paralyzing the nation. The military Junta that kicked Peron's second wife out really didn't do much except try to fan nationalist sentiment with that idiotic Falklands War. For 80 years Argentina has been run by the policies first put forth by Peron and it has been disastrous.

Problems arose in the late 90's - the Brazilian real plummeted in value, but because the peso was tied to the dollar it didn't follow suit, making Argentinian exports far more expensive than Brazilian. Lower world prices for farmed goods and a general global economic slowdown haven't helped either, so I find it difficult to lay the blame for the state of the current Argentinian economy on the Perons. After all Eva Peron died in 1952 and between 1955 and 1973 Juan Peron was in exile; he was re-elected in 1973 but died in office in 1974, so successive non-Peronist governments had plenty of time to implement their own policies. I doubt that Juan Perons final presidency, which only lasted for 10 months in 1973-74 and in which he drifted more and more to the right, had that strong an effect on the economy, and let's not forget that the country had only been governed by Peron for 10 months in the last 50 years.

There haven't been many non-Peronist governments ruling this nation.

As for Peron himself it has been years since I've read anything about him, but a quick google refreshed my memory. He espoused a political Third Way, basing his policies on what he considered to be the best aspects of socialism and capitalism. I can only admire his efforts at empowering the Argentinian working classes, and I (personally) have no problem with his anti-clericalism (any move to take power away from the church is to be welcomed), but his repression of rival political beliefs, and his isolationism could only have been dangerous policies.

Good point. But, I have to disagree with his "empowering" the working classes. What power does someone have who isn't employed? Or is under-employed? As for his anti-clericalism; it wasn't has bad as in Mexico, and basically consisted of legalizing prostitution. Argentina has always had it written in their constitution that only Roman Catholics may serve as President.

I also find it hard to accept his admiration of Mussolini to whom he served as a military adviser. Likewise his exile to Francos Spain where he lived peacefully, and by all accounts happily, for many years is at odds with his support of the working classes.

This is what I mean by lighting both ends of the candlestick. Peron and Mussolini both preached Nationalistic policies. He saw big money in getting Nazi's into his nation for gold. As he enriched himself personally the working classes who he supposedly championed fell deeper and deeper into poverty. I don't find his exile into Franco's Spain at odds at all; the man was ,like Franco, a Nationalist and basically blood is thicker than water. Where was he going to go? Germany?

 

[Lincsong]

So what's it like down there?

I am not sure I want to defend them, but I was recently in Argentina and made it a point to visit both of their graves (actually mausoleums) and while Eva's was well-known and touristy, Juan's was in a cemetary much farther out from the center of town and basically ignored. It was sort of an adventure just finding it. Not sure what this says about how Argentines like to remember the two though.

What is Buenos Aires like? What do people say about the economy and conditions. I can see California becoming America's Argentina, in much the same way that Louisiana is our own little Second World country.

 

[Bebop]

I am Argentine and although I can't defend Peron or his Evita, my father raised us telling us they were the best thing since bottled wine. I think Juan was a power hungry poitician that should have been a great used car salesman not a leader of a country. Evita was an idealist that looked good on paper but underestimated human behaviour.

Argentina is it's own worst enemy. They have so much to offer the world. They raise the best beef in the world. The wine from Mendoza, which is where I am from, is better than anything from California or France. Most cities in Argentina are just like Europe. The Argentine are made up of mostly Europeans. Most people in their 30's or 40's are second or third generation Argentines. Grandparents are from Italy, Spain, England therefore there are strong ties to Europe with many relatives still living there so the country reeks of Europe. The country has the most beautiful sights. The best bargains for vacations, Buenos Aires rivals the excitement and nightlife of Paris or New York, fishing is incredible, skiing is beyond compare, dollars go very far and there are no Argentine officials trying to get the world to see this. I think the country has a need for independence from European culture. They desperatly seek Argentine culture which is very foggy compared to the culture of the Europeans that make up the backbone of government. They do not want to be like any country and that keeps them unorganized and scattered. They just will not take an opportunity and run with it. For example, why are we buying peaches from Chile in our supermarkets this winter? Chile has one tenth the peach growers that Argentina has. Chile has a government that explored exportation of it's goods. Argentina does not have that government.

Most Argentines with whom I socialize love their country but can't raise their families with that government so they move to the U.S. where opportunity is endless. Some are willing to put up with it because they don't want to leave their traditions and customs behind. Then it becomes the great vacation place that they visit once a year only to reaffirm why they moved to the U.S.

 

[Lincsong]

Welcome to the discussion Bebop

I'm glad there's an Argentinian here. Glad to hear your perspective. I've only met two people from there and I've always been fascinated by that country. I don't know why. Probably because my sister is a big fan of plays and saw Evita on Broadway in 1978, bought the book and since I've always been intrigued with biographys I read it. Yeah, I know a 9 year old reading about Juan Peron and a 36 year old who never heard of Narnia. Go figure. But, I've read that in the Pampas you could put plow into the ground and push it for 200 miles in a straight line and never hit a rock! Amazing! Then I found out that 100 years ago it had a standard of living behind only the U.S. and Britain and I wanted to know "what the heck happened?". This fascistic nationalism that swept Southern European countries in the 1920's and 1930's really was economic suicide. (With it's large Southern European population and small Indian, African and Mestizo populations Argentina fits that standard). Keep up the posts gentlmen, this thread sounds like it could be real promising.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Argentina is it's own worst enemy. They have so much to offer the world.

Don't forget Argentine soccer, Bebop. Magnificent stuff.

Speaking of greatness being its worst enemy, I have two words for you: DIEGO MARADONA.

(Bebop, I lived in Chile for seven years. In that time, I visited Buenos Aires often. When I die, I would like to spend eternity in a fully-functioning Argentina, sipping ajenjo or yerba mate at the Gran Cafe Tortoni with Borges and Gardel.)

.

 

[Lincsong]

Marc come on over to WWII

Marc Chevalier, come on over to the WWII section, go to The Axis Powers and get in on the discussion about the Spanish Civil War, socialism, communism, nazism and fascism.