Morning dress

[Phileas Fogg]

My current tailor is Cao Vinh of Saigon (69 Pasteur Street), my previous one passed away some years ago (he was the tailor of my paternal grandfather).
Yours,

Phileas Fogg

 

[Tomasso]

It's apparent that the persnickety nature of Sator past is now present on the Flounge. Let's hope and pray that it's quarantined to this thread.

 

[Salieri]

Once shirt were supposed to be only white, the pal blue and pink which crept in are a relatively recent thing (more or less after WWI). Ties have always allowed some latitude to the wearer.
If done correctly the worst thing you should see is a very weird waistocat coupled witha bad shirt and/or tie.

I am unde the strong impression that up to some time ago people would just go for the right thing, maybe witha bad tie, but they would avoid some of the horrendous items we see nowadays. If they could afford a morning coat they would have gone for it, if they could not they would have worn their best suit and looked good.

I'm not saying I would really change the rules, just that if modern tailors want to give morning dress more conptemorary appeal (CF. the C&T thread) backing the black waistcoat I think might be quite a good option. I wouldn't enforce it myself.

RE shirts: I'm not at the right computer to dig through my picture collection, but there are plenty of images of coloured (particularly striped body) shirts being worn with morning dress from the 1870s and '80s. Similiarly, the hiring of formal wear for special occasions was already fairly well established in the middle classes by the end of the C19th. By the morning coat's heydey as formal wear in the 20s and 30s, hiring was a huge business and Moss Bros was already pretty massive.

 

[Nick D]

I passed up a silk topper that fit yesterday :eusa_doh: Sadly, I just don't have the £85 to spend on a hat that I would wear probably once a year right now.

 

[Salieri]

I passed up a silk topper that fit yesterday :eusa_doh: Sadly, I just don't have the £85 to spend on a hat that I would wear probably once a year right now.

But you can get it out and brush it and admire it, like a lovely pet that you don't need to train or feed.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

I agree that a black waistocat (with a black coat) is not a bad idea and actually havingan extra waistcoat made in black is not that expensive.

As for striped or coloured shirts I do not dispute their existence before 1919 and neither do I think that nobody ever wore such a shirt with morning dress, but I fear it was not that common and may even have been frowned upon in some circumstances.
Morning dress being formal the most appropriate shirt should have been a white one. Any way nowadays there is much more freedom in the choice of colour and both stripes and lighter colours could do, whereas dark shirts with morning dress are better avoided as some contrast with the coat looks better.
Yours,

Phileas Fogg

 

[Salieri]

Morning dress being formal the most appropriate shirt should have been a white one.

Well, morning dress wasn't especially formal in the late C19th, which is, I think, why there was a reasonable amount of variation in appropriate shirting than there was cca 1910-1920.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Uh! I've almost had enough with the C&T forum. They misinterpreted my rhetorical question directed against Sator's beliefs and thought they were my own beliefs! And I was doing well defending my Chappist friends as well... Seriously, the forum is becoming a farce the way I see it. Indeed, Sator is right to control its contents as creator but he rules with an iron fist and doesn't understand the whole scheme of things and anything that isn't in his world view, no matter how much people try to convince him to look at the whole picture and be open minded, he will not have it. Defence of tailoring, for him, can only happen via one single mean and that is full on modern bespoke tailoring which only the rich can afford (he doesn't say this explicitly but the intention is clear) disregarding everything else minor that maybe worthy and important to aid the tailoring world.

*sigh*

I might as well call it quits before I get high blood pressure from it all...

 

[Charlie Huang]

Shirts: TBF, as long as it doesn't clash with the ensemble and is harmonious in colour then it really could be any suitable colour in plain form or striped (I think black or big bold patterns would just overwhelm everything however). It's not of much importance in the whole scheme of things.

 

[Qirrel]

Uh! I've almost had enough with the C&T forum. They misinterpreted my rhetorical question directed against Sator's beliefs and thought they were my own beliefs! And I was doing well defending my Chappist friends as well... Seriously, the forum is becoming a farce the way I see it. Indeed, Sator is right to control its contents as creator but he rules with an iron fist and doesn't understand the whole scheme of things and anything that isn't in his world view, no matter how much people try to convince him to look at the whole picture and be open minded, he will not have it. Defence of tailoring, for him, can only happen via one single mean and that is full on modern bespoke tailoring which only the rich can afford (he doesn't say this explicitly but the intention is clear) disregarding everything else minor that maybe worthy and important to aid the tailoring world.

*sigh*

I might as well call it quits before I get high blood pressure from it all...

I don't think Sator is going to change his views any time soon. He has decided, and arguments against will only serve to raise ones blood pressure.

 

[Dr Kilroy]

Remember that coloured or patterned shirts are only appropriate with turndown-collar shirts. With wing collar, only white.

Best regards, Dr

 

[Salieri]

Remember that coloured or patterned shirts are only appropriate with turndown-collar shirts. With wing collar, only white.

Best regards, Dr

Really? I'm not so sure...

This picture has bee around the block a few times, so nothing new but clearly shows a horizontal striped shirt with wing collar:

 

[Dr Kilroy]

Oh, I have not noticed that. All right, so self-patterns or very subtle ones are allowed, but a white shirt with blue stripes, blue, champagne, etc. shirts are rather off.

Best regards, Dr

 

[dhermann1]

I must say, the more I look at this morning coat thread, the more I love the look, and appreciate the great variety of options it affords, in spite of its superficial uniformity. And a lot of those options are quite sporty! I would suppose this is the result of it being designed for daytime wear. Anyhow, I'm enjoying this thread.
Now somebody has to organize an event where this sort of get up could possibly conceivably be appropriate, other than a wedding or a diplomatic event. Time for a Fedora Lounge morning suit meet up!

 

[Chasseur]

Time for a Fedora Lounge morning suit meet up!

Here, here!

 

[dhermann1]

If you mean, "Hawaii! Hawaii!", I'm all for it!

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Dear Mr. Huang.

it seems that teh discussion of C&T got a bit out of hand. Still I would not worry too much about it. Of course second-hand garments are not made for the second buyer, still as they were basically bespoke garments when made and bespoke is a relatively more expensive route where quality often plays an important part it may be assumed that even these second hand garments are not that bad. A second hand Rolls Royce is still a Rolls Royce and does not become a Kia all of a sudden. Older items will be somewhat worn and maybe so much deteriorated that they will not be up to their former standards still an attempt to go for an affordable quality item is still there.
Of course tailoring means mostly new items but one has also to learn what he is doing and doing so through lesser expensive things has its merits.
The discussion could go on and on even here as there are many more points but for now I would just state that you made your point and it was a very sensible one but in the face of such a veto there does seem much use to try any further for the time being. Sator's attitude is not the best for one who wants to save an ailing craft (may it be ailing or not) and his forum could suffer from in the future (even the near future) .

Going back to morning dress variations. Well, morning coats were of course less formal than frockcoats but still higher up in the formality scale than a lounge coat, even in the late 19th century.
I have seen quite a lot of period pictures from different sources, there was even a book about fashions from 1860 to 1900 with something like 150 pictures. From all these sources I would say that there was enough latitude in how to dress (I remember a picture of an Italian nobleman with trousers which looked almost like tartan trews), still morning coat was formal enough and white shirts were a huge majority.

Of course a brown morning suit would have been less formal than somewhat ina very serious and formal black with striped trousers.
Yours,

Phileas Fogg

 

[Charlie Huang]

Dear Mr. Huang.

it seems that teh discussion of C&T got a bit out of hand. Still I would not worry too much about it. Of course second-hand garments are not made for the second buyer, still as they were basically bespoke garments when made and bespoke is a relatively more expensive route where quality often plays an important part it may be assumed that even these second hand garments are not that bad. A second hand Rolls Royce is still a Rolls Royce and does not become a Kia all of a sudden. Older items will be somewhat worn and maybe so much deteriorated that they will not be up to their former standards still an attempt to go for an affordable quality item is still there.
Of course tailoring means mostly new items but one has also to learn what he is doing and doing so through lesser expensive things has its merits.
The discussion could go on and on even here as there are many more points but for now I would just state that you made your point and it was a very sensible one but in the face of such a veto there does seem much use to try any further for the time being. Sator's attitude is not the best for one who wants to save an ailing craft (may it be ailing or not) and his forum could suffer from in the future (even the near future) .

My point is that you should separate the vintage from the tailoring aspect which seems to have been muddled up by them. A person who buys vintage does not necessary mean they will only be stuck in that aspect 100% of the time. They still go out and buy new stuff and some do go to tailors and get modern suits made from them. It is this latter aspect that makes it unfair to tarnish them all with the same brush of vintage generalisation. Forget about the vintage aspect for a moment; at the end of the day they do support tailoring however small the makeup is.

Yes, I agree that the whole thing has gone a tad out of hand. I think I'll quit whilst I'm ahead.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Time for a Fedora Lounge morning suit meet up!

Indeed!

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Of course, people will buy different types of clothes, even fanatic steampunkers will not be wearing some costume all the time, let alone more sensible people!
Also those who go to a tailor may want something which has a rather old-fashioned look. The King of Tonga seems a good example as he wore a frocksuit at the Royal Wedding, which is not exactly the latest fashion and which hardly comes of the rack.
But I am pretty sure that he is not the only one and that there many more customers of tailors who want a somewhat traditional look both for their lounge suits and formal clothes.
To me a morning coat is a pretty normal item, which I do use now and then for weddings and a few other events, there is nothing weird or costumey there. Same goes for a dinner jacket or full evening dress.

Well, all in favour of a nice event to which we could wear morning suits. I really do miss such events here in Vietnam (the only one thus far has been the party for the Royal Wedding).
Yours,

Phileas Fogg