New ELC Hartmann

[Creeping Past]

Well spotted, BT.

 

[BellyTank]

But.
Did Mr. Past Creeping, meet Johnson, H., Dr., walking, at the Legends, Flying.
Duxford.


B
T

 

[Creeping Past]

I went on Sunday, the unfashionable day, and met no one, except the friendly chaps on the Pike Brothers stand and the eccentric, knowledgeable Devonians in the Eastman tent. I'd never really got the A-2 prior to seeing them in the tanned flesh. Now I'd quite like one. Plus a G-1. And an A-1, too. Also, an Irvin.

It was a great show.

The SR-71 was a new arrival since my last visit. It's a fine spacecraft.

I made the mistake of visiting one of the caffs, where I had a Sandwich, Egg, Warm. It looked like it might've rained as well as being hot, so I split the difference and wore Tweed and Aertex, for the use of.

 

[BellyTank]

But.
Not Sandwich, Egg, Warm, Debilitating, I hope.

Regards, kindest.


B, T.

 

[miles_archer]

How can clothing, as non-sentient cloth, fabric, etc. be ideological? I've never really understood that conundrum.

On Sunday, at Duxford Flying Legends, I finally appreciated that the ME-109 was a far superior plane to the Spitfire (faster, bigger, more manoeuvrable). That realisation didn't make me a Germany's WWII-era leadership, and the plane certainly wasn't a Germany's WWII-era leadership.

In another, more controversial vein (I hesitate given the nature of this forum, but it's my considered opinion), if one regards certain garments as tainted by association with particular ideologies, one may need to consider one's relationship to all clothing used in or inspired by war-fighting, because surely it's heavily tainted by association with mass death and misery, both in terms of military personnel and the civilians caught up in war.

OK I’m kind of bored so I’ll take the bait…Firstly of course clothing can be ideological when it makes a point to connote something contextually unexpected. Eg when a serviceman wears a military uniform in a civilian setting they are making a point of saying that they proudly embrace the ideologies that uniform represents. When you wear a pink ribbon pinned to your lapel you are saying that you embrace an ideology consistent with curing ****** cancer. Etc
And yes when you wear military inspired clothing it is appropriate to take into consideration all the hardships and tragedy associated with the garment. I would argue that being cognizant of the sacrifice of the garment’s original wearer is an important part of honoring them. I would also argue that wearing a military inspired garment to honor its original wearers is a source of enjoyment for said garment. Being an American I naturally choose to wear jackets that honor American service in WWII (though I wouldn’t mind getting an Irvin someday) and don’t particularly relish the idea of glorifying a German ace. Even if he wasn’t a member of the Germany's WWII-era leadership party and no doubt felt terrible about every allied plane he shot down.
To be fair this thread has softened my opinion of the jacket a little. I think I might see if my local tailor could make something like the Hartmann with a M422a style back. Also the spitfire and ME-109 pale in comparison to the grandeur of a P-38 in the flesh.

 

[Marv]

good post......I'm a big Hurricane fan myself, it's such a fantastic and beautiful aeroplane in an ugly sort of way.

 

[BellyTank]

And yes when you wear military inspired clothing it is appropriate to take into consideration all the hardships and tragedy associated with the garment.

But to observe the scope and context of the discussion, the two "Luftwaffe" jackets offered by Eastman are almost the opposite- civilian clothing, chosen by wartime pilots as daily clothing, then pressed into service by Eastman, to market and sell the Luftwaffe Ace angle- broaden their range.

Ignore the hype and the context in which they are sold and they are just pretty good copies of 1930s sporting leathers- not recognisable as military wear, which they really are not.

The Hartmann would be nicer in brown goatskin, I think, due to the shortness and closeness of fit of the original style- although Eastman have stretched the cut out a little (just like many other military uniform repro manufacturers do)to accommodate the bench pilots of today.


B
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[dit dah]

The percieved ideological connections with certain items of clothing and the implications of wearing them is an interesting debate.

Surely it's all representative and more about connotation and emotional response rather than "actuality". Of course an Iron Cross or a leather jacket can't kill someone but I have to ask why someone would want to wear a garment so specifically linked in peoples minds to a catastrophically horrendous group of people.

Yes of course all the German forces weren't Germany's WWII-era leaderships but this wasn't a football match. They might have been doing their "bit" for their country but that did happen to involve dragging the entire globe into total war.

I went to my first 40's event last week at the Severn Valley Railway. Much fun but I was tempted to ask the few chaps present why they chose to dress in Germany's WWII-era leadership uniforms (not just army). An odd choice unless there is an element of respect, admiration or ******. For sure there's plenty to admire about the German war machine but I'll leave that to the military strategist types. There is not enough distance yet between us and WW2 for emotion not to play a part.

Certain clothing does garner a specific emotional response due to the percieved connection. I actually don't think this jacket would, to most folk, were it not for certain details. I'd also like a similar style jacket and would buy one if the Luftwaffe bits were left off. Personally I wouldn't want to celebrate them.

Admiration for an aircraft is totally different to choosing an Adolf moustache. When you don a garment it becomes part of you and makes a statement whether wittingly or not. If you drove to work in a Kugelwagen every day I'd wonder why, given it's obvious link, you still chose it.

Still, it's a lovely jacket and the only reason it's available alongside Allied versions is that the German's lost the war and democracy was protected (and Eastman's eye for business of course). Funny that it's actually a civilian jacket but they had to make the connection with a few German pilots to sell it. What a strange people we are.

each to their own of course....

 

[BellyTank]

Hello again, Mr. Dah!

More disturbing, is reenactors- "living history" types, donning black SS uniforms for historical events and having their kids tag along clad in HJ and BDM uniforms, boys and girls, respectively.


B
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[dit dah]

At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we shall remember them, whilst parading about it tribute clothing to the people who did for them.

It's got a ring to it don't you think?

Oops, hang on, my high horse has bolted...

 

[Creeping Past]

If it came down to reenactors only wearing clothes worn by those who were proved morally right, they'd all go around naked.

I get the gist though, and I hereby promise that this is my last post on the subject.

...

Except to say that proscribing the wearing of civilian clothing worn by or facial hair sported by bad people is taking patriotism and moral rectitude a step too far.

 

[erikb02809]

One way or the other, that's a sharping looking jacket, and Hawkeye wears it well. "Luftwaffe Jacket?" Well, looks to me like Hawk Eye's wearing the jacket. In my book, that makes it "Hawk Eye's jacket".

 

[BellyTank]

Quite right!
That's the best way of looking at it.


B
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[STW]

Like the man says in that movie about the holy grail, "Let's not bicker about who killed who[m]"

But Mr. Dah touches on why Germany's WWII-era leaderships and 3rd Reich stuff in general can seem like an exception, and that's because of the wide spread ****** that surrounds Germany's WWII-era leadership symbols and clothing. Nothing wrong with a ****** I suppose, but this one is closely and thoroughly associated with white supremacy and all kinds of other dodgey political ideas. You would think it would die down, but the associations get renewed in every generation. So I get why it raises an alarm for many people.

The ELC Luftwaffe and Hartmann jackets are great looking. I especially like the cuff treatment on the Luftwaffe with snap flap covering a zip. It was interesting, and somewhat reassuring, to learn that these jackets were not designed by the 3rd Reich but were just consumer goods from Paris. But I admit that if I did buy one, I'd remove the nicely embroidered tag that says "Luftwaffe" in a redolent font. You never know what ****** such a tag might associate you with and what political ideas someone might assume you had. For me, I wouldn't want it to be a conversation starter.

 

[dit dah]

OK, disagree to disagree, or something like that.

Last words: This jacket is NOT sold as a civilian jacket, if it were then it's appeal would probably be limited to BT, myself and a few other freaks, not a good business proposition.

Creepers: Although I do not take patriotism as an insult this is merely respect for those I consider to be morally right during that conflict and to whom I am grateful. Perhaps it is no longer fashionable to see WW2 in this way? I'm surprised, though, that you don't distinguish between the morality of the Allied and Axis causes. I am pretty out of touch though.

No insult meant to this jacket or the owner, it is a swell coat and looks great.

Right, I'm off to buy a Che Guevara Belstaff, Chairman Mao cushion and funky "Gulag vodka glass", hey, it's only fashion right?

 

[H.Johnson]

I was there on Sunday (RNAS Yeovilton on Saturday) - we hadn't arranged to meet, so perhaps it is no suprise that we didn't.

It would have been a pleasure if we had, I'm sure. Maybe next time.

I went on Sunday, the unfashionable day, and met no one.<snip>
It was a great show.

QUOTE]

 

[Creeping Past]

Well, I'd have got a kick out of meeting you, anyway.

There'll be other airshows...

 

[BellyTank]

Last words: This jacket is NOT sold as a civilian jacket, if it were then it's appeal would probably be limited to BT, myself and a few other freaks, not a good business proposition.

True- but you, me, Creeping Past, HJohnson, et al, need to get what we want from where it is- no other choices.
Dumb luck, as I said, ELC sell the right thing, with the wrong name.

Attiring one's self accordingly nowadays, involves eclectic, resourceful, lateral shopping.

I would not be saying-"look at my Luftwaffe jacket". I would not be saying anything for that matter, just wearing and enjoying.

An "A-2 Jacket" is an A-2 Jacket, the ELC Hartmann needn't be anything but
a nice jacket.


B
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[murena]

Hi,

first of all, congratulation to your very nice jacket. I have the same one, however from a german company. The only problem by this “repro” jackets is, that you see from the far that isn´t an original, because the true jackets from 1930s and 1940s are more fine-boned. the best sample is that the zippers from modern ones are too chunky and that looks not so good I think. I can compare it because I collect original flight jackets from WW2 (and yes I am NOT a Germany's WWII-era leadership!)
Have you a remorse to buy an american flight jacket because at the time of world war 2 american pilots threw two atomic bombs on japan?
I think it´s overdone when some people say, they do not buy this kind of jackets because for more than 60 years pilots wear one. (Erich Hartmann and his familyfor example wasn´t in the party, like most of the germans and austrians!) I must speak about this, because i am also austrian and we will be confronted with this almost every day in the radio, newspaper or television. back in the days it was a very bad time and it happened many terrible things – so that we must look to prevent such things which were happened in WW2, and should never forget this, but carefully we should allow to rest. our (my) generation can´t help it, it was the time from our grandparents. for example in austria; today when you say “i am proud of my country” you be automatically a Germany's WWII-era leadership! or when you will hang the austrian flag in your garden, it´s the same. so, in what time we exist that you have a remorse (i hope this word is correct) when you wear a normal leather jacket!!?
The next point is reenacting. I think it is okay when people illustrate a specific term, to show people how it was to this time (it doesn’t matter whether napoleonic wars, middle ages or ww2) however it should not glorify any special side, especially wehrmacht or ss!!
I hope it arrives correctly to you what I mean.

best regards,

Philipp

 

[eClairvaux]

I would like to add something from my vantage point of a German born in the sixties, that any clothing that would link myself with Germany's WWII-era leadership Germany would be an absolute no-go for me. Not even as a hoax, much less as a fashion item.

Still, I am absolutely fine with Hawk_Eye or JohnnyJohnny enjoying their jackets, but I admit that I might not grant the same to a fellow German.

The reason is that I have a very strong urge to avoid implying that I would find something remotely acceptable about Germany's WWII-era leadership Germany and it's atrocities, regardless if those were comitted by actual crimes against humanity, or those committed by looking the other way.

As such, every piece of Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe or other uniform clothing is singularly out of the question for me and I guess also quite a lot of other people. As dit dah put it "but I have to ask why someone would want to wear a garment so specifically linked in peoples minds to a catastrophically horrendous group of people." I can live with that, if that somebody is totally unconnected in terms of not being German (or Austrian). I have a hard time to accept it otherwise.

Thank you BT, dit dah and myles_archer for being so civil and tolerant on the one hand, but still asking what I also feel are the important questions.