old vs. new

[Robert Conway]

Well, it looks like I've caught the hat bug and have a basic question.

I have noticed that several of the old hat manufacturers like Dobbs and Borsalino are still in business.

My question is, how do their modern products compare to the vintage items? Are they still making the same models? Are the materials used comparable? How much has the quality suffered?

Can anyone share their experiences or perhaps make some recommendations?


Thanks in advance.

Robert Conway

 

[tonyb]

The short answer, Robert, is that the new ones are decidedly inferior. There are several threads on that very topic here. It's not that you can't get a nice, new hat, but the run of 'em just can't compare to the old ones. Now don't go bidding up those prices too high, OK? Scour your local secondhand/vintage/antique stores, where you can usually bid the price down rather than up.

 

[WEEGEE]

tonyb...your so right.

The other thing to keep in mind is that through time as you begin the

hat travel (collection), you might find your taste change and what you

thought once a pretty good quality hat pales in comparision to a recent

find.

have a good time.:cheers1:

 

[Solid Citizen]

Old Hat Names Sold Off!

Numerous FL threads on this:

1. Borsalino name sold off years ago, today
2nd rate & less to original glory years 20's-40's.

2. Same with Stetson, don't know about Dobbs.

3. Bottom line go vintage or go custom!

SC

 

[epic610]

In defense of retail

i think one of the goals of this forum ought to be the encouragement of retail hatsellers. they do have some advantages, first of all is that you can return the item if it doesn't fit or if does not look well on you. you don't have that luxury with ebay.

also, many of us may not have the time or the ability to clean, re-block or repair an older hat. some of us may wear the hat for business and need a sharp look that some beater from ebay won't provide.

and last but not least, the extra $60 or so for a new crisp, clean looking hat may not be consequential to some of us. we just want to open the box and put it on.

working in the world of finance i am well aware of the principle of "arbitrage" where as hats become more popular the price differential between new and vintage will increasingly narrow, so we will all be paying close to the same price anyway.

rather than dismissing all new hats as "junk" . . . i would rather see this forum discussing, rating and evaluating new models as to their relative quality and cost. let's try to give hat retailers a break. we need them to stay in business.

 

[tonyb]

It would break my heart to see the last hats-only retailer around here go belly up. The place is essentially unchanged from what it was when it first opened, in 1938, I believe it was. And what they sell there is good enough for most people, who, let's face it, will never be as fanatical about hats as most of us here are. I hear the store is doing fine, by the way. Used to be I could stroll in there and be the only customer. T'ain't true no more. Good for them. But I'm done with paying $250 or more for a new Borsalino there, because I now know that's a lousy value compared to what I can get in either a vintage or custom lid. But your point is well taken, epic610. The local store will still get some of my business. I'll still buy lower-end straws there--hats I won't cry over should they blow off my head and into the path of a bus. And they look good, at least while they're still relatively new.

 

[photobyalan]

i think one of the goals of this forum ought to be the encouragement of retail hatsellers. they do have some advantages, first of all is that you can return the item if it doesn't fit or if does not look well on you. you don't have that luxury with ebay.

That's a fine goal. Of course, if you need to return a hat to the store because it doesn't fit you, then the hatter should be ashamed!

also, many of us may not have the time or the ability to clean, re-block or repair an older hat. some of us may wear the hat for business and need a sharp look that some beater from ebay won't provide.

Absolutely. However, I have bought a number of vintage hats at auction, and none of them were "beaters", most didn't even need cleaning.

and last but not least, the extra $60 or so for a new crisp, clean looking hat may not be consequential to some of us. we just want to open the box and put it on.

If it were only $60, then you would be right. However, to get comparable quality with even an average-quality vintage hat, you really would need to buy a hat in the $175-$250 price range. This ends up being a $150-200 price difference in most cases. High quality vintage hats can go for as much as $200, but that compares with $400 to $600 and up for high-quality new hats.

working in the world of finance i am well aware of the principle of "arbitrage" where as hats become more popular the price differential between new and vintage will increasingly narrow, so we will all be paying close to the same price anyway.

I've seen some evidence of this recently, but only on selected hats. Yes, prices on the whole have risen some but, for the vast majority of cases, the price gap is nowhere near being closed.

rather than dismissing all new hats as "junk" . . . i would rather see this forum discussing, rating and evaluating new models as to their relative quality and cost. let's try to give hat retailers a break. we need them to stay in business.

I think it is an overstatement on your part the say that the members of this forum "dismiss all new hats as 'junk'". Saying a vintage hat has better materials and construction than a new hat is as valid a comparison as putting a new Stetson up against a new Borsalino. If a hat has a felt that is not as nice, or if the liner is hot glued in rather than sewn, or if the sweatband is cheap stiff leather, then shouldn't that be discussed?

Finally, it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that the Fedora Lounge has a distinctly vintage flavor, and to dismiss any comparison between vintage and modern hats would go against what the FL stands for.

I want hat retailers to stay in business, too. I don't like having to ship my hat for cleaning and blocking. I'd like to be able to get the kind of service my grandfather got when buying a hat without having to drive an hour or more each way to get it. But I'm not going to drop $200 on a hat that isn't up to snuff. Retailers have a responsibility, too, to demand better quality from the manufacturers, and to vote with their wallets against cheap materials and construction shortcuts. As long as a vintage hat offers better value, that's where I'm going to look.

 

[Robert Conway]

Interesting.

So, the new ones don't match up to the old ones in terms of quality of material and workmanship? Well, at least hats don't have armholes...

Does anyone at any price point still make a killer hat, new?



thanks

 

[tonyb]

I appreciate the candor, Joedahat. The owner of the local hat store will acknowledge to us long-time customers what we already know--that the quality of the new felts is spotty. But, again, they're still "good enough" for most people, and some of them aren't bad at all. And it's awfully hard to get a guy who's thinking he might want to buy a proper hat to shell out $450. The boss man at a local two-store western wear chain confided to me that he carries wool-felt hats because it's much, much easier to get a guy to part with 50 bucks than 250. And he has bills to pay, you know.

 

[spiridon]

The other thing to keep in mind is that through time as you begin the

hat travel (collection), you might find your taste change and what you

thought once a pretty good quality hat pales in comparision to a recent

find.

This has most certainly been my experience.

 

[feltfan]

I'd like to be able to get the kind of service my grandfather got when buying a hat without having to drive an hour or more each way to get it. But I'm not going to drop $200 on a hat that isn't up to snuff. Retailers have a responsibility, too, to demand better quality from the manufacturers, and to vote with their wallets against cheap materials and construction shortcuts. As long as a vintage hat offers better value, that's where I'm going to look.

Well put. By selling crummy hats, a hat store fails to
instill in new customers an expectation for quality.
As a result, hats remain an affectation or gimmick,
and not an essential part of one's wardrobe.

Are Aaron, Joe, and Besdor stocking a few hats from
Delk or Fawcett or Optimo and showing customers the
difference a few dollars makes (and sometimes the same
dollars!)? Do you have a modern Stetson you've subjected
to a couple of rainstorms or rolled up, to show how fast
they die? Do you explain subtle hat aesthetics new customers
have never considered, like crown height?

The big manufacturers could be using good materials. How much
more would it really cost Stetson to use quality sweat bands
and the same felt used by the small guys? Less than the
benchmade hats from the small guys I'm sure. They just need
to realize that only a hat that lasts is going to build the new
customer base. And they need to hear that from hat stores.

I know, it's easy for me to say, 'cause I'm not in the business.
I imagine most sales are to people who are looking for a gimmick
hat for this year's nightclub outings, to be tossed when some
singer stops wearing hats. Mostly I'm talking about cultivating a
new clientele. That may also take some advertising support from
the hat manufacturers. But if some of those kids notice how comfortable
and durable their gimmick hat turns out to be...

 

[Robert Conway]

How about the small custom guys? Does their quality compare to the vintage items?

 

[tonyb]

I imagine that the large majority of Hatco's production is cowboy hats. And cowboy hats are usually sold in western wear shops that also carry boots and fancy embroidered shirts with faux-pearl buttons and all that stuff. Cowboy hats are generally made of thick felt with lots of stiffener. And the better ones are kind of expensive. Hence the cheap wool felts those stores often carry. Heck, most of the "cowboys" you'll find out here wouldn't know which end of the horse to feed, let alone the difference between wool and even the cheapest fur felt. And even if the shopkeeper made that difference explicit, many (most, maybe) of his customers would still opt for the junk. After all, for them it IS a costume, essentially, something to wear to the Kenny Chesney (sp?) concert at the Tacoma Dome. And it goes good with that Ford Lariat pickup truck that will never see a bale of hay or a load of manure.
I've heard the sales staff at the local hats-only shop advise customers that those wool felts won't hold up very well, that they ARE costumes and will lose their shape should they get wet. But the customers buy 'em anyway. I doubt it's coincidental that many of those wool felts the local shop carries come in "outstanding" colors, such as bright reds and blues and whites. Not exactly what you'd wear on an everyday basis.
I can't fault the retailers for stocking what they can sell. Sure, they're concerned about the long-term viability of the hat trade, but they also have more urgent needs, such as paying next month's bills. Perhaps they'll let the manufacurers know that there's a growing demand for higher-quality felts when enough of their longtime customers tell them exactly that. I LIKE the guy who owns the local shop. I appreciate that he's kept it going through thin and thinner. And I'm happy for him that hats have made a modest comeback. Next time I go in there and he steers me toward the new Borsalinos (he carries that new, all-beaver version that retails for $450), I'll let him know that I have a custom on the way that cost me $175 less. Indeed, if it arrives by then, I may wear it into the store. And then maybe I'll buy an inexpensive straw or two to sweat through the summer in.
The western-wear shop proprietor I alluded to earlier in this thread is a great guy, by the way. He's from NYC and his accent reflects that. He came out here to work as a Boeing engineer and got into the cowboy thing in his "retirement." He knows his stuff, too. He's an enthusiast himself and it shows. I got quite the education in cowboy boots there, which took up a considerable amount of his time. And yup, pardners, I left with a pair.

 

[skyway]

Hello Epic,I was wondering,where did you find that blue homburg on your first profile picture.I have recently started wearing them,and I like the traditional style of your hat.Thanks.

 

[HatsEnough]

First of all, Robert, there aren't many hat makers of old that are still manufactured by the hat makers of old from what I can tell. They've all sold their names off to other manufacturers.

As to the age old question.... well, OK it isn't age old... "new or old"?

To me, it's always old. I find such a major difference between hats made before 1960 and any production line hat made today. The old ones are so much better. The new ones just don't have "it," if you will. And the difference is blatantly obvious the second you handle them.

But, you see, it's easy for me to say that. I am a size 7. I have all sorts of vintage hats to choose from.

If I had a larger head, I'd likely have a lot of new hats simply because the larger sizes are not as easy to find.

Then there are those guys that get creeped out about wearing a hat someone else originally owned. This sort of vintage-phobia would make one tend toward new hats, too.

As to customs... well, I just don't have the kind of money those cost. But I am certainly not against them and always suggest these guys to people looking to start getting into hats.

 

[jlee562]

Interesting.

So, the new ones don't match up to the old ones in terms of quality of material and workmanship? Well, at least hats don't have armholes...

Does anyone at any price point still make a killer hat, new?



thanks

Akubra makes pretty nice hats for their price. They're durable, that's for sure. I happen to quite like the Federation IV, as do a number of loungers.