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So who are the Aero Fanboys ( and girls)

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I still don't get how this is helpful, Plumb. You say yourself that bias is neither good nor bad - so why pursue this? Even if people out themselves as "partisans" what does this get us weeks from now? Do we discount their comments about brand X because they are fans of brand X? Do we have to search this thread in order to work out where people sit? I would have thought it was obvious what people think based on their posts. Or should we take this to its logical conclusion and have members pop a statement under their avatar saying something like, 'Aero or Alexander's Partisan', on the basis that we can then dismiss their enthusiasms? I can't see the use of this approach.

It's not helpful whatsoever except to a couple members who think that they are beyond reproach since they are surely quite different than many others that indeed should be named and set apart from their better personal outlook on a subject that actually holds little relevance except to expose other's supposed deeds (Oh but not misdeeds and not pertaining to them). Listing a long expose' of what they think the house rules should be (insinuating that they already follow them but some others except them just don't)...and perhaps those names should also be highlighted and registered as well. However you dice it...a couple members claim their innocence while suggesting that others should be revealed as being,well,just too preference prone. When actually most of us have read past posts and threads then have been quite capable to decipher where others usually truly stand concerning many 'outerwear' and member issues. This thread is nothing more than an attempt to put others squarely into certain camps only in order to declare..SEE. Lets credit or more than likely discredit all those who fail to be impartial as we loudly profess and expect for you to take seriously that they are certainly above the fray with no other motives than to be more fair. As if we just walked into the FL outerwear section.
HD
 

Plumbline

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Why did you ask for Aero specifically and not for jacket makers in general?

I don't see any evidence from any other manufacturer .... perhaps a little with regard to JC and Goodwear ..... but then only really in relation to A-2's. I've never seen a post re. "The Goodwear Fanboys", or the "Bill Kelso Fanboys" .. I have however seen many re " The Aero Fanboys"

I have to say I thought the treatment of Andy Fazlon apalling ( and said so .. there's that inconsistant application of "the rules" thing ! ) especially for a new entrant into the fray and also for the fact that much of what he said was accurate ( albeit he could have said it a little better ) I also find the way Stu at Lost Worlds is castigated a bit off as well .... especially from individuals who have clearly never sampled his products which are amazing. The lest said about the Alexanders issues the better ..... but again verging on litigious.

Recenbt posts about Schott's new range ( specifically targetting two of three specific jackets and their choice of models ) and Eastmans forray into new markets ( again re. website design and their choice of models) have been equally disparaging .... it might not be to my taste but the more the merrier and choice is a GREAT thing in leather jackets. These are just two examples there are many more ... Heron, Himmel Bros, Iron Heart, Coburn and even JC. I'm just not sure the critic is unbiased .. they are often made by the usual suspects .... and as such asked the question.

again ... just MHO !
 

Plumbline

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It's not helpful whatsoever except to a couple members who think that they are beyond reproach since they are surely quite different than many others that indeed should be named and set apart from their better personal outlook on a subject that actually holds little relevance except to expose other's supposed deeds (Oh but not misdeeds and not pertaining to them). Listing a long expose' of what they think the house rules should be (insinuating that they already follow them but some others except them just don't)...and perhaps those names should also be highlighted and registered as well. However you dice it...a couple members claim their innocence while suggesting that others should be revealed as being,well,just too preference prone. When actually most of us have read past posts and threads then have been quite capable to decipher where others usually truly stand concerning many 'outerwear' and member issues. This thread is nothing more than an attempt to put others squarely into certain camps only in order to declare..SEE. Lets credit or more than likely discredit all those who fail to be impartial as we loudly profess and expect for you to take seriously that they are certainly above the fray with no other motives than to be more fair. As if we just walked into the FL outerwear section.
HD

interesting opinion HD ... I struggle to see what innocence I'm proclaiming or indeed which house rules I've called into question ....... besides I thought I was on your ignore list ????
 

pawineguy

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I like any jacket that fits me well. I have a great fitting Aero, a great fitting Good Wear, and a great fitting Brooks. If I lived close to Aero or Johnson Leathers or Good Wear, I would probably align myself with them as it would be wonderful to actually try on a jacket at the factory and work out any needed modifications with the factory management.

I do find it irritating and unprofessional to hear so many (what I consider) personal remarks directed at individual makers. BK brought some of it on themselves, but they were treated very poorly. The "superior" leather he touted, and was ridiculed for, now commands a $200 upcharge on Aero jackets through Thurston Bros. Whenever Lost Worlds is discussed, it quickly gets into personal attacks on Stu. Alexander Leather is disparaged regularly - just a few days ago, a snide remark about copying Aero's designs was made. Aren't all these repro makers "copying"? I haven't seen anyone develop an A-3, but I've seen many copies of A-2's. When I first got here, I read all about Aero and their (well deserved) reputation for customer service. I only read good things about Will Lauder and Amanda. Then the storse issue came about and I recall a joint Aero/Horween statement saying both companies were no longer associated with Will Lauder. Of course, Horween has no problem selling their hides to Alexander Leathers, so I guess Horween wasn't really wasn't very angry at Will Lauder, huh?

I hope we can continue to discuss & critique leather jackets on the merits of the leather and the fit - regardless of brand. I hope we can put an end to the personal attacks made purely on the basis of brand.

Grayland, I agree with the spirit of your post, but when the rubber hit the road, you were more disturbed by my defense of Horween than by someone trying to spread anonymous lies about them to a member who was trying to make an informed decision on a jacket purchase.
 

nick123

I'll Lock Up
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6,304
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I'm not sure what or who has been 'moderated' but it wasn't me! This is my entry post.

Personally, I currently have an aero (which some of you may have heard about) and an AL, with jackets from another three makers on the way. Then I'd quite like to try out a Thedi or maybe even a DD cafe racer. I am grateful to any of them who can supply me a good jacket and good service and if they do I'll likely post a positive review - which I'll try to keep objective - but that's as far as it goes for me.

I have to say I agree with Grayland 100%. I don't enjoy the snide derogatory comments about other makers that so regularly pop up on these pages either. As he observed, the usual targets are BK and AL.

For me, coming on here to talk leather jackets with guys like him, PL, SebLucas, Trapp, Nick123, Dav, Worf, Cooperson - even superfluous (I know I'm missing some out here, these are just a few off the top of my head) is the nice thing about tfl because I know that lot are just the same as me - we're all in the same boat. Just a bunch of guys with a shared interest in leather jackets who'll buy from anywhere. We don't care where you buy your next jacket from but if you want some advice we'll try to help you out if we can

In my experience, I have found it is when a select few feel compelled to try and dictate the direction of conversations that are organic and free-flowing that this issue of 'allegiance' becomes a negative. I am not 100% clear on what a 'Fan Boy' is so let me talk about partisan posting. I think to post over positively about your favourite maker is no problem at all, go right ahead. But if that graduates to catty cheap shots at other makers then a line has been crossed and that kind of stuff really sours the overall experience; it basically lowers the tone.

Given all the great press a company like aero receives on a daily basis on these pages - and nobody would deny that they are indeed the centrepiece for this section - I feel like if that is the situation and this is an open forum then dissent must be allowed too. Aero is run by humans, right? Humans are human, right? So if they make a mistake or a misjudgement once in a while then the adults should be able to talk about it freely without any other members attempting to police them. There are moderators in place for that type of thing and they should be left to it, no? To clarify, I am talking here about public conversations that are conducted post private conversation with the maker i.e. once the maker and buyer have concluded their behind the scenes discussion.

If in the minds of some members no dissent shall be permitted on any grounds whatsoever ever, then think about what that actually means for a second, and how ridiculous that would be - it would be silly, no?. Now think about what the actual current landscape on these pages is and consider how far apart the two are. If the afore-mentioned is your position then how you can honestly expect anyone to take your words seriously is beyond me.

Dissent is healthy and IMHO must be allowed because:
1) Grown men and women are able to talk candidly and in accordance with house rules without libelling anybody and should be trusted to do so. If they prove themselves incapable, this place is not unmoderated and a moderator can step in.
2) If a mistake that aero makes gets highlighted here so what? The other 99.5% of their exposure will still be positive so I'm thinking they can probably survive it. Compare the situation if you will to those big sellers on ebay with feedback into the 10s of thousands. No matter how good their record is they always have a few negative feedbacks don't they, yet we all see straight past those as we know it's par for the course in dealings between human beings of that volume. Same goes for aero.

I just wish everyone on here would relax a bit more. If members could just pay a little bit more attention to what the spirit of this house is supposed to be, and afford a bit more respect to those with different views to their own, instead of trying to shout over them all the time we would all be able to enjoy a much happier, healthier online community.

Some of us (who perhaps post regularly in other forums too) I think need to remember where they are when they're here. TFL is not some 2 bob forum for loud mouthed louts! This is a place for gentlemanly conduct; the respectful exchange of viewpoints. I truly hope we can get back to more of that in 2015

Apologies for droning on a bit.

Happy new year everyone! :D

Schitz, it's a joy talking to you too. Especially someone who share my same measurements...with that said, I really feel like this place had developed a sour tone the past few weeks. I might have contributed to some of it. With it being the new year, it's a new leaf for all of us. Let's put the baggage behind us and make this place great again.
 

pawineguy

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And an eery silence about that $200 upcharge descended ;) Must be so obviously justifiable added value that it's not worth mentioning :D

I guess there's an unwritten rule somewhere about what's regarded as bad taste when individuals promote relative quality of products. I was pretty sad when BK got shouted down and stomped on.

Lost Worlds: really superb jackets.

Show me the quote where Carrie told us all that her new leather was the best in the world, that all other HH was second rate, told us why her competitors choose to use second rate products, how they were lazy in their design work, etc... and I will be the first one to post and tell her that she went over the line. What is missing from a lot of these comments about BK and LW is that there are plenty of us that have made the differentiation: Beautiful jackets / bad personality.

For those of you who think that BK was just "lost in translation" and are not on VLJ, when they designed the new Heracles jacket, he created a thread so that members could follow the design process. (a brilliant idea imo) What the thread turned into instead was a rolling criticism of the Hercules jacket from Aero, noting all of the places that Aero had made mistakes, what was wrong with the Aero design, how inaccurate it was, and how much better the BK jacket was... and doing it all in the most condescending fashion imaginable. Of course, the Hercules jacket he was constructing was a COMPLETELY different design from Aero's and thus the whole exercise was apples and oranges. What could have been a really epic and interesting thread turned into nothing but Aero bashing, and tarnished what was an interesting process and eventually a gorgeous jacket. It's not a problem with translation it's a marketing strategy.
 
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Fanch

I'll Lock Up
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4,492
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My bias is for Oklahoma State.

IXL I care not the least whom your bias is FOR; I care only whom your bias is AGAINST. :D How about them Sooners or Horns? lol We need to re-direct this thread to a bashing of Big 12 schools. Yeah, I know; now there are only 10 teams left in the Big 12, but there must be at least one Big 12 school that you HATEand can give us a DETAILED rationale why. ;) Maybe Texas A&M that flaked (left) the Big 12 for the SEC, although rationale must be accompanied with at least one Aggie joke: eg. What is black, charred, and hangs from the chandelier? Answer: an Aggie electrician. :D
 

Grayland

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Grayland, I agree with the spirit of your post, but when the rubber hit the road, you were more disturbed by my defense of Horween than by someone trying to spread anonymous lies about them to a member who was trying to make an informed decision on a jacket purchase.

I apologize if my comment (on the other post) came across as a swipe at you. I was in a hurry to leave for the holidays and didn't have the time to explain myself the way I wanted. I replied to your post but it was a build up from other posts (on other threads by other people). I meant no ill will towards you in particular and I'm sorry I came across that way.
 

Otter

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IXL I care not the least whom your bias is FOR; I care only whom your bias is AGAINST. :D How about them Sooners or Horns? lol We need to re-direct this thread to a bashing of Big 12 schools. Yeah, I know; now there are only 10 teams left in the Big 12, but there must be at least one Big 12 school that you HATEand can give us a DETAILED rationale why. ;) Maybe Texas A&M that flaked (left) the Big 12 for the SEC, although rationale must be accompanied with at least one Aggie joke: eg. What is black, charred, and hangs from the chandelier? Answer: an Aggie electrician. :D


OK, I will bite!

Why do Aggies go around in threes?

One that can read, one that can write and one to keep an eye on the two intellectuals.
 

schitzo

Suspended
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It's not helpful whatsoever except to a couple members who think that they are beyond reproach since they are surely quite different than many others that indeed should be named and set apart from their better personal outlook on a subject that actually holds little relevance except to expose other's supposed deeds (Oh but not misdeeds and not pertaining to them). Listing a long expose' of what they think the house rules should be (insinuating that they already follow them but some others except them just don't)...and perhaps those names should also be highlighted and registered as well. However you dice it...a couple members claim their innocence while suggesting that others should be revealed as being,well,just too preference prone. When actually most of us have read past posts and threads then have been quite capable to decipher where others usually truly stand concerning many 'outerwear' and member issues. This thread is nothing more than an attempt to put others squarely into certain camps only in order to declare..SEE. Lets credit or more than likely discredit all those who fail to be impartial as we loudly profess and expect for you to take seriously that they are certainly above the fray with no other motives than to be more fair. As if we just walked into the FL outerwear section.
HD

Nope. I've read it back three times but still can't work out what this is trying to say. Perhaps you could recap and clarify the key points? As that is there, I cannot process it

Grayland, I agree with the spirit of your post, but when the rubber hit the road, you were more disturbed by my defense of Horween than by someone trying to spread anonymous lies about them to a member who was trying to make an informed decision on a jacket purchase.

If you're referring to me, (I guess you are) I'm saddened to see that your confusion hasn't yet cleared. I have never tried to spread any anonymous lies about any company, period. And a closer examination of my words re this tannery reveals exactly that. As i recall it, at the time you kept posting up quotes that simply didn't tally with what you were accusing me of. You did not seem able or prepared to understand what devil's advocate is, and how that works. One last time OK, and then we really need to move on because I can't keep going back there:
In my opinion HORWEEN makes great leather and as far as I know they do not cut any corners, nor have they ever.
You can quote me on that, OK. That is my position. I trust that is clear enough and that it removes any lingering doubts. So please, if you need to throw a stone at me, find a new one now and try to base it around something other than your own inability to understand what's being presented. Your misunderstanding & subsequent unwillingness to listen to the clarifications that followed AND reality - are NOT the same thing.


Sadly it would seem that for this thread to be discussed calmly and without the nastiness is becoming less and less likely. In fact, as far as I can see this is rapidly descending into the type of school playground scene that is, quite frankly, unbecoming for a group of fully grown men, many of whom I'd assume are fathers. Poor PL , as polite and entirely reasonable as he is, it would appear, is about to be shouted over and or disparaged to the point that there is no other option left but for it to be closed. In which case those who don't like the questions raised (as perfectly reasonable as those are) will have succeeded. If you ask me, such a state of affairs is a crying shame

Plum, I know you said you only have one mode when it comes to bullies, but perhaps you might try not responding to some of it?
 
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Fanch

I'll Lock Up
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4,492
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OK, I will bite!

Why do Aggies go around in threes?

One that can read, one that can write and one to keep an eye on the two intellectuals.

Otter you miss my point. There must be a rationale why you hate Texas A&M and Aggie alumni in general. Malicious slender accepted but within reason so the mods won't shut down this contentious thread. Then and only then, the Aggie joke.
 

pawineguy

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I apologize if my comment (on the other post) came across as a swipe at you. I was in a hurry to leave for the holidays and didn't have the time to explain myself the way I wanted. I replied to your post but it was a build up from other posts (on other threads by other people). I meant no ill will towards you in particular and I'm sorry I came across that way.

No apology necessary. I was at a point where I was tired of all of this innuendo, especially anonymously, and you had clearly had enough of the Aero defense guild. Hopefully soon we'll all be back to drooling over pics of great jackets.
 

Otter

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Otter you miss my point. There must be a rationale why you hate Texas A&M and Aggie alumni in general. Malicious slender accepted but within reason so the mods won't shut down this contentious thread. Then and only then, the Aggie joke.

OK, point accepted. Can I say that the went to a Cow College then they claimed it was a Horse College? :)
 

pawineguy

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Nope. I've read it back three times but still can't work out what this is trying to say. Perhaps you could recap and clarify the key points? As that is there, I cannot process it



If you're referring to me, (I guess you are) I'm saddened to see that your confusion hasn't yet cleared. I have never tried to spread any anonymous lies about any company, period. And a closer examination of my words re this tannery reveals exactly that. As i recall it, at the time you kept posting up quotes that simply didn't tally with what you were accusing me of. You did not seem able or prepared to understand what devil's advocate is, and how that works. One last time OK, and then we really need to move on because I can't keep going back there:
In my opinion HORWEEN makes great leather and as far as I know they do not cut any corners, nor have they ever.
You can quote me on that, OK. That is my position. I trust that is clear enough and that it removes any lingering doubts. So please, if you need to throw a stone at me, find a new one now and try to base it around something other than your own inability to understand what's being presented. Your misunderstanding & subsequent unwillingness to listen to the clarifications that followed AND reality - are NOT the same thing.


Sadly it would seem that for this thread to be discussed calmly and without the nastiness is becoming less and less likely. In fact, as far as I can see this is rapidly descending into the type of school playground scene that is, quite frankly, unbecoming for a group of fully grown men, many of whom I'd assume are fathers. Poor PL , as polite and entirely reasonable as he is, it would appear, is about to be shouted over and or disparaged to the point that there is no other option left but for it to be closed. In which case those who don't like the questions raised (as perfectly reasonable as those are) will have succeeded. If you ask me, such a state of affairs is a crying shame

Plum, I know you said you only have one mode when it comes to bullies, but perhaps you might try not responding to some of it?

I'm not referring to you. (a bit of vanity showing itself there Schitzo?) I have no idea who was communicating with the OP in the Horween thread, and it's not relevant. What was relevant was that I was trying to correct the lies of the anonymous tipster.

As far as I can see, the thread is going along fine, so while I don't like the original premise at least people are getting some things off their chests.
 

Fanch

I'll Lock Up
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4,492
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OK, point accepted. Can I say that the went to a Cow College then they claimed it was a Horse College? :)

That would be more Oklahoma State than Texas A&M but must tread carefully without ruffling the feathers of IXL whom I am pretty sure is an OSU shill. :D
 

scotrace

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Staff member
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Small Town Ohio, USA
Sadly it would seem that for this thread to be discussed calmly and without the nastiness is becoming less and less likely.

Said the guy with a ready can of Nasty Juice.

As long as people's Cheerios keep getting ****** in, yes, this is going nowhere.
If a person has a favorite brand of leather jacket, or tires, or toothpaste, or phone - that's normal. We can't all like the same thing-- that'd be boring. No one objects to having favorites, or not having favorites, or defending favorites, or comparing merits, or sharing experiences, whatever.

This is what we object to:

"I'm just here to state, in my irreproachably unbiased way, that these other people are turd faces with sordid agendas and unmarried parents. But we all know this place is biased toward them, so I'm not allowed to say so on this Gestapo-Run board that ignores My Constitutional Rights."

It's horse ****.
 
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