Terms Which Have Disappeared

2jakes · Nov 30, 2015

ChiTownScion said:
I love arguing with religious types when they maintain that employing the usual G.D or J.C. is "using the Lord's name in vain." And I think my argument is solid.

The prohibition set forth in Exodus and Leviticus set forth in what we call "the Ten Commandments" refers to a name rendered in Hebrew by means of the tetragrammaton. Not any English word or name, as English as a language didn't exist at the time the commandment was reportedly given. "God" isn't a name- it's a title, perhaps a job description... but not a name. To "use the name of the Lord in vain" would mandate a knowledge of Hebrew that I wish I possess... but I really don't. Usually rendered as יהוה, the actual pronunciation of the tetragrammaton is a matter of speculation based upon a transliteration.

Then I offer this analogy: if your name is Jorge, your name may be seen as the rendition in English of George. However, "Jorge" is still your name- it isn't still "George," whether you're in Yonkers or Buenos Aires. The prohibition set forth in Exodus and Leviticus set forth in what we call "the Ten Commandments" prohibits use of a name- not the English language rendition of a name.

And as an alternative argument I point out that "using the name of the Lord in vain" is about taking an oath without proper intent- not verbalizing a curse.

I would think if there is a need to curse using a name,
why not use your name instead & be done with it.

a2jacketpatches · Nov 30, 2015

2jakes said:
I would think if there is a need to curse using a name,
why not use your name instead & be done with it.

Good point Sean Dammit!!!!!!

LizzieMaine · Nov 30, 2015

ChiTownScion said:
I love arguing with religious types when they maintain that employing the usual G.D or J.C. is "using the Lord's name in vain." And I think my argument is solid.

The prohibition set forth in Exodus and Leviticus set forth in what we call "the Ten Commandments" refers to a name rendered in Hebrew by means of the tetragrammaton. Not any English word or name, as English as a language didn't exist at the time the commandment was reportedly given. "God" isn't a name- it's a title, perhaps a job description... but not a name. To "use the name of the Lord in vain" would mandate a knowledge of Hebrew that I wish I possess... but I really don't. Usually rendered as יהוה, the actual pronunciation of the tetragrammaton is a matter of speculation based upon a transliteration.

Then I offer this analogy: if your name is Jorge, your name may be seen as the rendition in English of George. However, "Jorge" is still your name- it isn't still "George," whether you're in Yonkers or Buenos Aires. The prohibition set forth in Exodus and Leviticus set forth in what we call "the Ten Commandments" prohibits use of a name- not the English language rendition of a name.

And as an alternative argument I point out that "using the name of the Lord in vain" is about taking an oath without proper intent- not verbalizing a curse.

Exactly so. The tetragrammaton is usually translated into English as "Jehovah," and appears a couple of times in the King James transaltion in that form, where it's usually printed in small capitals to denote its ineffable nature, but in most cases, wherever you see "LORD" in small caps in the KJV Old Testament, it's the tetragrammaton that appeared in the original Hebrew. Some translations, notably the American Standard Version of 1901 use "Jehovah" thruout the Old Testament.

Hebrew was and is written without vowels -- a complicated system of notation is used to represent what vowels should be used -- so the original true pronunciation of the tetragrammaton is lost. So it's impossible for us today to take the actual, genuine "Lord's Name" in vain, because we don't even know how to pronounce it properly.

a2jacketpatches · Nov 30, 2015

Wow, pretty deep, but good way to find an argument if you're looking for one. I think most religious types are just annoyed by the carelessness. I'm not one of them but refrain from the use such out of respect for the unknown.

Capesofwrath · Nov 30, 2015

LizzieMaine said:
Exactly so. The tetragrammaton is usually translated into English as "Jehovah," and appears a couple of times in the King James transaltion in that form, where it's usually printed in small capitals to denote its ineffable nature, but in most cases, wherever you see "LORD" in small caps in the KJV Old Testament, it's the tetragrammaton that appeared in the original Hebrew. Some translations, notably the American Standard Version of 1901 use "Jehovah" thruout the Old Testament.

Hebrew was and is written without vowels -- a complicated system of notation is used to represent what vowels should be used -- so the original true pronunciation of the tetragrammaton is lost. So it's impossible for us today to take the actual, genuine "Lord's Name" in vain, because we don't even know how to pronounce it properly.

You say I took the name in vain
I don't even know the name
But if I did, well really, what's it to you?
There's a blaze of light
In every word
It doesn't matter which you heard
The holy or the broken Hallelujah

L Cohen.

Bruce Wayne · Dec 6, 2015

Has anyone ever heard the phrase that when someone died they buttoned up their wood suit?

HoosierDaddy · Dec 6, 2015

KILO NOVEMBER · Dec 7, 2015

Here's one that was current among adults when I was an adolescent. Anyone hear "skirt chaser" in the past five decades?

HudsonHawk · Dec 7, 2015

KILO NOVEMBER said:
Here's one that was current among adults when I was an adolescent. Anyone hear "skirt chaser" in the past five decades?

Yeah, but not from anyone young enough to catch one.

KILO NOVEMBER · Dec 8, 2015

HudsonHawk said:
Yeah, but not from anyone young enough to catch one.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

scottyrocks · Dec 8, 2015

ChiTownScion said:
I love arguing with religious types when they maintain that employing the usual G.D or J.C. is "using the Lord's name in vain." And I think my argument is solid.

The prohibition set forth in Exodus and Leviticus set forth in what we call "the Ten Commandments" refers to a name rendered in Hebrew by means of the tetragrammaton. Not any English word or name, as English as a language didn't exist at the time the commandment was reportedly given. "God" isn't a name- it's a title, perhaps a job description... but not a name. To "use the name of the Lord in vain" would mandate a knowledge of Hebrew that I wish I possess... but I really don't. Usually rendered as יהוה, the actual pronunciation of the tetragrammaton is a matter of speculation based upon a transliteration.

Then I offer this analogy: if your name is Jorge, your name may be seen as the rendition in English of George. However, "Jorge" is still your name- it isn't still "George," whether you're in Yonkers or Buenos Aires. The prohibition set forth in Exodus and Leviticus set forth in what we call "the Ten Commandments" prohibits use of a name- not the English language rendition of a name.

And as an alternative argument I point out that "using the name of the Lord in vain" is about taking an oath without proper intent- not verbalizing a curse.

There are many words/names used for describing the many aspects of the one God as believed by Jews. 'Hashem' is a common one. Another more common Hebrew word is pronounced 'adonoi' (ah-doe-NOY) which is represented in text by two of the letter 'yuud,' together. The letter loosely resembles an apostrophe. If pronounced the way it is spelled, it would sound like two "y's," but in is pronounced 'adonoi.'

Both are substitutes for 'the name that must not be spoken.'

Capesofwrath · Dec 8, 2015

Bruce Wayne said:
Has anyone ever heard the phrase that when someone died they buttoned up their wood suit?

No, but getting ready for your wooden overcoat was common in the UK up to my father’s generation.

tonyb · Dec 8, 2015

There are numerous euphemisms for dying, some of which might be lost on younger people. "Bought the farm" comes to mind, as does "kicked the bucket."

Youngsters might deduce the meaning from context, but would probably be at a loss as to either's origin.

skydog757 · Dec 10, 2015

I miss the terms "Pier Six brawl" or "It's a regular Donnybrook" or even "Free for all" when referring to a fierce clash of groups/mobs (normally confined to fist fights).

p51 · Dec 10, 2015

skydog757 said:
I miss the terms "Pier Six brawl" or "It's a regular Donnybrook" or even "Free for all" when referring to a fierce clash of groups/mobs (normally confined to fist fights).

The last of the three is the only one I've ever heard before.
But then again, I was raised in the Deep South. Most fights were called, "A good butt-whoopin'"

HudsonHawk · Dec 10, 2015

"Rhubarb" is another term for a fierce fight, though not necessarily involving a mob. Word is, the term was first used to describe a fight at a bar in Brooklyn amongst Dodger and Giants fans.

LizzieMaine · Dec 11, 2015

Yep, popularized by Dodger announcer Red Barber, who called his autobiography "Rhubarb In The Catbird Seat," said "catbird seat" being a position of advantage -- another Barberism which was very popular in the Era but has since faded away.

Barber's surviving broadcasts are a gold mine of colorful language. I heard him describe one particular game as being "as tight as a new pair of shoes on a rainy day," and immediately mourned for all the thousands of games he broadcast over the years for which no recordings exist, and all the brilliant bits of language we'll never get to enjoy.

Around here, a rowdy fight is known as a "knock-down drag-out."

skydog757 · Dec 11, 2015

[QUOTE="LizzieMaine, post: 2022278, member: 1381"Around here, a rowdy fight is known as a "knock-down drag-out."[/QUOTE]

I'd forgotten that one. I also remembered "brouhaha", which I never really cared for although it was a nice set-up word for the Firesign Theatre. A "brouhaha" wasn't specifically a fight, it was more of a "hubbub".

Stearmen · Dec 11, 2015

Don't forget, "let's dance" and "let's tango!"

MisterCairo · Dec 11, 2015

a2jacketpatches said:
Wow, pretty deep, but good way to find an argument if you're looking for one. I think most religious types are just annoyed by the carelessness. I'm not one of them but refrain from the use such out of respect for the unknown.

Thank you.

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