WONDER WOMAN

LizzieMaine · Jun 10, 2017

Seb Lucas said:
I've often wondered about that. I don't watch superhero films by choice and have never bought a comic book so I'm out of that subculture but I am curious why this material is popular. I've seen a few superhero films, The Dark Knight and Iron Man and one or two others and I just found them heavy handed and lacking substance. Not terrible, but far from enjoyable to my taste. I find it very difficult to stay awake during special effects sequences since they are so implausible and bombastic. Maybe I lack the gene that allows me to suspend disbelief.

I read comics as a kid, in the days when "Hey Kids! Comics!" and spinner racks at the drug store were still a thing, but it wasn't so much for the fantasy element as it was an interest in figuring out how it was done -- I think comics were probably the first medium I learned to look at analytically rather than simply going along with the flow, and I look at comic book movies the same way. There was very little actual characterization in the comics I read growing up -- but that was the part that actually interested me the most. What, exactly, might possess a man born into wealth and privilege to dress up like a giant flying rodent and go after another man obsessed with the imagery of a circus clown, flightless waterfowl, or the number two?

The whole worldview of comics was so exaggerated and ridiculous that it couldn't bear being taken seriously, but still -- taking it as it was given, there had to be a reason why these characters did these things. The better comics creators understood this and tried to give their characters believable motives at least within the context of the story -- and I think that's still the key to making any superhero, science fiction, or fantasy story work. If the characters have believable motives, and react to situations in a recognizable, understandable way based on those motives, the rest of the bombast and nonsense doesn't really matter.

That's the main reason I don't care for "campy" takes on superhero stories. If the writer doesn't respect the characters and their motives enough to present them sincerely, why should I?

Frunobulax · Jun 10, 2017

AmateisGal said:
I'd totally buy a Peggy Carter action figure! I wish ABC had renewed Agent Carter.

I've been hoping Netflix might pick her back up. If even for a couple of short runs or a movie.

Oh, and: https://www.newsarama.com/25038-peggy-carter-quake-get-action-figures-in-new-variant-cover.html
But I don't think it looks like Hayley Atwell, and you don't even get a hat!

This guy did a good one, but it was apparently a one-off and Ms. Atwell now possesses it.

Seb Lucas · Jun 10, 2017

I can respect that view Lizzy. Unfortunately I have yet to see writing of any quality save any of them but is should be theoretically possible.

Fading Fast · Jun 10, 2017

LizzieMaine said:
...The whole worldview of comics was so exaggerated and ridiculous that it couldn't bear being taken seriously, but still -- taking it as it was given, there had to be a reason why these characters did these things. The better comics creators understood this and tried to give their characters believable motives at least within the context of the story -- and I think that's still the key to making any superhero, science fiction, or fantasy story work. If the characters have believable motives, and react to situations in a recognizable, understandable way based on those motives, the rest of the bombast and nonsense doesn't really matter.

That's the main reason I don't care for "campy" takes on superhero stories. If the writer doesn't respect the characters and their motives enough to present them sincerely, why should I?

I agree 100% with this and would add that the "world" they create can have physics, dimensions and powers that ours doesn't, but that physics and those dimensions and powers have to be consistent throughout the world they create. It's just another way of showing that the writers are taking the story and audience seriously.

LizzieMaine · Jun 10, 2017

Right there is the difference between "science fiction," "science fantasy," and "fantasy." I always thought "Star Trek" used to try -- not always succeed, but at least to try -- to maintain a consistent element of at least scientific plausibility to the situations it presented. "Doctor Who," on the other hand, leans much more heavily to "science fantasy," or even outright fantasy in the way that it uses science wildly inconsistently from one story or even scene to the next. And something like "Harry Potter" doesn't even bother with any kind of scientific plausibility because it's simply fantasy.

Or to keep it in terms of comics, "Wonder Woman" is purely a fantasy character. There's no scientific basis to any of it -- even though she did originate as a personification of certain psychological theories popular in the 1930s. "Batman," on the other hand, could -- theoretically -- exist, at least in his original conception as a night-stalking vigilante who adapted certain types of weaponry, chemistry, and forensic science to suit his purposes. You could question what swinging on a "silken rope" fifty stories above the ground might do to the shoulders, wrists, and hands of the individual doing it, but if you can accept such exaggerations of physics, you can probably convince yourself to accept the rest of the mythos.

Where you run into problems is when you expect Wonder Woman and Batman to exist in the same fictional "universe." This was a problem with Wonder Woman from the very beginning of her existence -- the only DC characters at that time who could plausibly operate in the universe she was established in might have been Hawkman, Doctor Fate, and perhaps Johnny Thunder (who would have made an ideal love interest for Etta Candy. Pity they never thought of that.) But having her operate in the same universe as Batman and other more reality-oriented characters really tended to mess up the mythos, and still does to this day. You can't have them together unless you compromise the essence of both. On the other hand, Wonder Woman could easily have existed in the same magic-oriented universe as Captain Marvel and the rest of the "Shazam" crowd, which had already established Greek and Roman gods as actual physical beings capable of influencing human affairs, and which seemed very lightly bound by any sort of logical science. Pity Dr. Marston wasn't pals with Roscoe Fawcett instead of Max Gaines.

MisterCairo · Jun 10, 2017

Worf said:
They'll be fine. Not a lot of gore... and blood and little to no overt cussing. This ain't "Deadpool".

Worf

So, we shouldn't have shown them Deadpool???

Worf · Jun 10, 2017

MisterCairo said:
So, we shouldn't have shown them Deadpool???

Oh HELL no!!!! I was BORN nasty but that guy used language that would make a drill Sgt. blush! Don't get me wrong... best Adult Superhero movie ever made with the emphasis on the word ADULT!

Worf

Formeruser012523 · Jun 11, 2017

Saw Wonder Woman this morning & wasn't nearly as pleased as thought I'd be. It certainly LOOKED amazing, but left me with the feeling that DC was maybe trying too hard. But, then I don't have the history of their characters (other than Batman) that I should.

Frunobulax said:
I've been hoping Netflix might pick her back up. If even for a couple of short runs or a movie.

There's a site called the MCU Exchange. I read there some time ago that the head of Netflix passed on picking up Agent Carter because "it was a business decision." A.K.A. it was probably too expensive, if you ask me. Shame, since the petition to bring it back had over 150,000 signatures, but who was counting...

Worf said:
Oh HELL no!!!! I was BORN nasty but that guy used language that would make a drill Sgt. blush! Don't get me wrong... best Adult Superhero movie ever made with the emphasis on the word ADULT!

Worf

When my sister told me her husband took my nephews to see that I thought I might have to murder him! LOL! I loved it, but, yeah. Not for the kiddies! Most definitely. Thank goodness for him, he didn't.

Fading Fast · Jun 11, 2017

My grandmother loved movies and took me with her to see adult-themed movies from the time I was old enough to sit through a movie (I think she was lonely). I saw "Tora!, Tora!, Tora!," "The Valachi Papers" and other equally violent movies with "aggressive" language and sex all by the time I six, seven or eight or so.

The way it worked in my world was you behaved as you were taught to - period, full stop / no negotiating or discussing it / do as you are told - and the world of movies / TV were not guides as to how to act. Most of that was implied in my upbringing, but I got it.

Oh, and I can't wait to see "Wonder Woman."

Doctor Strange · Jun 11, 2017

I saw Wonder Woman yesterday and liked it... a lot.

FINALLY, a DC movie that actually understands who its hero is and what it is that makes her heroic, and isn't mired in downbeat depression and misery (despite how much of that surrounds her in the WWI scenes). Clearly the best DC film since Christian Bale was Batman. It's obvious that Gal Gadot is terrific in the part, but I want to put in a word for Chris Pine. He's an actor who's never done much for me, but he handled a tricky role - essentially "the girlfriend" - with deftness and grace. The film also does an unexpectedly good job of representing the Great War in all its horror.

Of course, I have a few complaints with the story/script, but they're minor. I'll leave them for later.

And - this is not the film's fault - given all the superhero films of recent years, there's a lot here that's awfully familiar. I was continually reminded of Thor - immortal prince(ss) leaves mythical realm to become a fish out of water in the modern world, and must learn her role as mankind's protector. (And - somebody didn't do their homework - the score used in the Themyscira scenes is VERY similar, MUCH TOO similar, to that of the Asgard scenes in Thor.) And Captain America: The First Avenger - the German villains, the war, the protagonists' gang of oddball "Howling Commandoes", the sacrifice on the plane to save millions... I repeat, it's not the film's fault that so much of these stories are similar, but it's a thing. The big CGI-to-the-max third act battles are also exhaustingly familiar, but that pretty much comes with the territory in this kind of film these days.

Patty Jenkins did a great job directing. The action scenes are very good (that no man's land scene is stunningly staged and has EXACTLY the impact it should), but more importantly, the dramatic scenes are well done throughout. And - since so much is being written about how we finally have a big superhero film directed by a woman - she stages the Themyscira scenes minus the male gaze, showing a functional all-female society without any winking. (There's none of the sexpot costuming and leering photography you'd see from somebody like Zack Synder.) Most importantly, Diana's real strength - her universal compassion and overriding goodness - shines through at every point, even when she's kicking butt. She exudes that same pure goodness you see in Christopher Reeve's Superman and Chris Evans' Cap. What a pleasure to see the better-than-this-world Diana we love after the way-off-character treatment of Supes and Bats in Snyder's films!

(I also saw the Justice League trailer beforehand. I remain dubious, it looks like a mess.)

Formeruser012523 · Jun 11, 2017

Doctor Strange said:
And - this is not the film's fault - given all the superhero films of recent years, there's a lot here that's awfully familiar. I was continually reminded of Thor - immortal prince(ss) leaves mythical realm to become a fish out of water in the modern world, and must learn her role as mankind's protector. (And - somebody didn't do their homework - the score used in the Themyscira scenes is VERY similar, MUCH TOO similar, to that of the Asgard scenes in Thor.) And Captain America: The First Avenger - the German villains, the war, the protagonists' gang of oddball "Howling Commandoes", the sacrifice on the plane to save millions... I repeat, it's not the film's fault that so much of these stories are similar, but it's a thing. The big CGI-to-the-max third act battles are also exhaustingly familiar, but that pretty much comes with the territory in this kind of film these days.

Had these exact same thoughts while watching. Made me wonder if that was why the story was pushed back to WWI? So as not to be compared to Cap? Loved the "No Man's Land" scene, but did they have to say it over and over? I got it. She's a she and was going to cross "No Man's Land." Reminded me of Eowyn's line: "I am no man" from Return of the King.

AmateisGal · Jun 11, 2017

Doctor Strange said:
I saw Wonder Woman yesterday and liked it... a lot.

FINALLY, a DC movie that actually understands who its hero is and what it is that makes her heroic, and isn't mired in downbeat depression and misery (despite how much of that surrounds her in the WWI scenes). Clearly the best DC film since Christian Bale was Batman. It's obvious that Gal Gadot is terrific in the part, but I want to put in a word for Chris Pine. He's an actor who's never done much for me, but he handled a tricky role - essentially "the girlfriend" - with deftness and grace. The film also does an unexpectedly good job of representing the Great War in all its horror.

Of course, I have a few complaints with the story/script, but they're minor. I'll leave them for later.

And - this is not the film's fault - given all the superhero films of recent years, there's a lot here that's awfully familiar. I was continually reminded of Thor - immortal prince(ss) leaves mythical realm to become a fish out of water in the modern world, and must learn her role as mankind's protector. (And - somebody didn't do their homework - the score used in the Themyscira scenes is VERY similar, MUCH TOO similar, to that of the Asgard scenes in Thor.) And Captain America: The First Avenger - the German villains, the war, the protagonists' gang of oddball "Howling Commandoes", the sacrifice on the plane to save millions... I repeat, it's not the film's fault that so much of these stories are similar, but it's a thing. The big CGI-to-the-max third act battles are also exhaustingly familiar, but that pretty much comes with the territory in this kind of film these days.

Patty Jenkins did a great job directing. The action scenes are very good (that no man's land scene is stunningly staged and has EXACTLY the impact it should), but more importantly, the dramatic scenes are well done throughout. And - since so much is being written about how we finally have a big superhero film directed by a woman - she stages the Themyscira scenes minus the male gaze, showing a functional all-female society without any winking. (There's none of the sexpot costuming and leering photography you'd see from somebody like Zack Synder.) Most importantly, Diana's real strength - her universal compassion and overriding goodness - shines through at every point, even when she's kicking butt. She exudes that same pure goodness you see in Christopher Reeve's Superman and Chris Evans' Cap. What a pleasure to see the better-than-this-world Diana we love after the way-off-character treatment of Supes and Bats in Snyder's films!

(I also saw the Justice League trailer beforehand. I remain dubious, it looks like a mess.)

Excellent review!

Doctor Strange · Jun 11, 2017

Mae said:
Had these exact same thoughts while watching. Made me wonder if that was why the story was pushed back to WWI? So as not to be compared to Cap? Loved the "No Man's Land" scene, but did they have to say it over and over? I got it. She's a she and was going to cross "No Man's Land." Reminded me of Eowyn's line: "I am no man" from Return of the King.

It was definitely pushed back to WWI to reduce comparisons to Captain America: The First Avenger, I read that somewhere a while ago. Turned out to be a very smart move!

scotrace · Jun 12, 2017

Saw Wonder Woman Saturday afternoon. I think it may be one of the best made movies I've ever seen- the way the action scenes were done (except for the obvious fantasy super hero stuff) reminded me of the best of the Indiana Jones series.
Just as Doctor Strange said, we talked all the way home about how WW's goodness was evident in an unbroken line start to finish, and how Chris Pine handled his role beautifully. He's got heavier chops than I suspected. The sexual roles were reversed, as they should be, and it's brilliant. LOVED the movie.
And isn't Gal Gadot just amazing? SO much presence, there is no looking at anything else when she's on screen. She dominates spectacle effortlessly. Charlton Heston could do it, but it was always "I'm being majestic now..." Gal Gadot just owns the whole world. And she's unbelievably beautiful.
Wonder Woman is such a strong female character. Amazing. It's unfortunate it won't be seen (except via the black market) in parts of the Arab world.

Worf · Jun 13, 2017

scotrace said:
Saw Wonder Woman Saturday afternoon. I think it may be one of the best made movies I've ever seen- the way the action scenes were done (except for the obvious fantasy super hero stuff) reminded me of the best of the Indiana Jones series.
Just as Doctor Strange said, we talked all the way home about how WW's goodness was evident in an unbroken line start to finish, and how Chris Pine handled his role beautifully. He's got heavier chops than I suspected. The sexual roles were reversed, as they should be, and it's brilliant. LOVED the movie.
And isn't Gal Gadot just amazing? SO much presence, there is no looking at anything else when she's on screen. She dominates spectacle effortlessly. Charlton Heston could do it, but it was always "I'm being majestic now..." Gal Gadot just owns the whole world. And she's unbelievably beautiful.
Wonder Woman is such a strong female character. Amazing. It's unfortunate it won't be seen (except via the black market) in parts of the Arab world.

I guess the word "logic" doesn't apply anywhere these days... I guess they're scared of strong, emotionally grounded ass kickin' women in some parts of the world... Also her Israeli heritage doesn't help... Sigh...

Worf

AmateisGal · Jun 13, 2017

scotrace said:
Saw Wonder Woman Saturday afternoon. I think it may be one of the best made movies I've ever seen- the way the action scenes were done (except for the obvious fantasy super hero stuff) reminded me of the best of the Indiana Jones series.
Just as Doctor Strange said, we talked all the way home about how WW's goodness was evident in an unbroken line start to finish, and how Chris Pine handled his role beautifully. He's got heavier chops than I suspected. The sexual roles were reversed, as they should be, and it's brilliant. LOVED the movie.
And isn't Gal Gadot just amazing? SO much presence, there is no looking at anything else when she's on screen. She dominates spectacle effortlessly. Charlton Heston could do it, but it was always "I'm being majestic now..." Gal Gadot just owns the whole world. And she's unbelievably beautiful.
Wonder Woman is such a strong female character. Amazing. It's unfortunate it won't be seen (except via the black market) in parts of the Arab world.

I think one of my favorite scenes is the fight on the beach. So see those women kick a$$ so capably, so fiercely...well, it did my heart proud.

Tiki Tom · Jun 25, 2017

Three generations of us saw it at a theater today. Very good. Everyone from grandma to teens loved it. Grandma wanted to see it because she was a fan of the comic books back in the early days. The movie exceeded expectations. I was fearing it was being over-hyped for reasons that had nothing to do with the movie itself. I was mistaken. Loved the intermixing of Greek myth and WWI story-telling. Some great WWI scenes. All acting was solid. Chris Pine stole a few scenes. WW's sheer fearlessness was mesmerizing. My only quibble is that they could have dialed back the long, final, over-the-top green screen boom bang explosion scene. I was starting to get bored well before Aries was sent to the under world. (As world history tells us, he didn't stay there for long.) Anyway, great DC comics movie. And I'm not particularly a fan of super hero movies. Definitely recommended.

plain old dave · Jun 26, 2017

The Not We wife and I saw the thing Saturday.

The Good:

While it was a historical in the Doctor Who sense of not letting historic fact get in the way of a good story, the team did their homework for the most part. The costuming was on point, small arms too. The Scot's P14 sniper rifle was what most P14s were actually used for; the piece was rechambered to 30-06 and Sgt York and most of the AEF's soldiers and Marines carried M1917s instead of 1903s.

Diana/Wonder Woman was plausibly Ancient Greek.

Liked the Bruce Wayne tie-in.

The bad:

I'm not a fan of the stop-action martial arts fight. It was OK in The Matrix, but just said "filler" to me here.

Would have liked to see more of the AEF instead of British Intelligence. If Steve Trevor's an American officer, he would have been working for BG Nolan at G-2 in the AEF. Black Jack Pershing was under very strict orders that Americans were only to be under American command on the Western Front; the sole exception to this rule was the 369th Infantry (the famous "Harlem Hellfighters") who fought the entire war under French command.

I have another problem with the story, but it's a spoiler...

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk

EngProf · Jun 28, 2017

plain old dave said:
The Not We wife and I saw the thing Saturday.

The Good:

While it was a historical in the Doctor Who sense of not letting historic fact get in the way of a good story, the team did their homework for the most part. The costuming was on point, small arms too. The Scot's P14 sniper rifle was what most P14s were actually used for; the piece was rechambered to 30-06 and Sgt York and most of the AEF's soldiers and Marines carried M1917s instead of 1903s.

Diana/Wonder Woman was plausibly Ancient Greek.

Liked the Bruce Wayne tie-in.

The bad:

I'm not a fan of the stop-action martial arts fight. It was OK in The Matrix, but just said "filler" to me here.

Would have liked to see more of the AEF instead of British Intelligence. If Steve Trevor's an American officer, he would have been working for BG Nolan at G-2 in the AEF. Black Jack Pershing was under very strict orders that Americans were only to be under American command on the Western Front; the sole exception to this rule was the 369th Infantry (the famous "Harlem Hellfighters") who fought the entire war under French command.

I have another problem with the story, but it's a spoiler...

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk

Is there any connection between setting "Wonder Woman" during WWI and the present 100th Anniversary of US entry into WWI (1917-2017)?

I'm glad you mentioned "stop-action martial arts" in "The bad" portion of the review. I can't abide stop-action martial arts, so I'll probably wait until the movie comes to Netflix. That way I can fast-forward through those scenes.

(Historical clarification: Pershing did want the main body of US forces to operate as a separate Army, which did happen, but there were some other examples of significant US units fighting under foreign command: The US 27th and 30th Infantry Divisions fought under British command and were even issued British weapons (SMLE vs. 1903's or 1917's).)

Doctor Strange · Jun 28, 2017

Uh, no. You are ascribing far more of a sense of history (and nationalism) to Warners/DC than they deserve. It was set in WWI mostly to minimize comparisons to the WWII setting of Marvel's Captain America: The First Avenger. The ragtag group of irregulars Diana falls in with is awfully similar to the Howling Commandos, and if they were fighting Nazis, it would be VERY similar.

Also, WWI hasn't appeared in films - or the recent popular imagination - nearly as much as WWII. The horrors of trench warfare make an especially poignant setting for Diana's "education".

And really, looking for extreme historical accuracy in a fantasy film is bound to disappoint...

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