BellyTank
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Aha!
Thx.
BT/
Thx.
BT/
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Anorak : Like Pitt wears in "TIBET"
- Thread starter Doug C
- Start date
Dudleydoright
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Ventile anoraks
Hi All,
Here's the first couple of photos of what could (for an anorak head like myself) be a LOT of photos !lol
The first is the lighter weight olive green 'BAS Anorak' as sold by Westwinds direct and by SOFmilitary.co.uk . It's a great anorak although I think that the 2 bellows pockets on the chest are to big to stuff them full of kit and then move about wothout them having a life of their own ! The deep zipper is good too. The back is scalloped / longer and there is a strap that fixes under the legs to stop the anorak inflating like Marilyn's dress.
The second here is my mods carried out by Westwinds. It's india orange but the flash makes it look far worse than it really is. It's a heavier weight ventile (apparently I got the last of the orange). I got them to put a single chest pocket on it and to shorten the neck zipper. Other than that it is the same as the green one with 2 lower front pockets and longer back with crotch strap. The chest pocket is better IMVHO than the 2 chest pockets. The green one is a size bigger than the orange so I could put it over the orange one (or vice-versa in an emergency).
Unfortunately, being clean and new and having used flash, it is very hard to make out details on the orange smock. If there's interest then I'll take others in natural light. I could also get some photos of me wearing the smocks to give an idea of fit etc.
I forgot to mention that I opted for velcro for practical reasons. I already have zippers and buttons on my vintage anoraks so don't need to have them on these two.
Other vintage anoraks will follow as i track down the discs they are on !
Cheer,
Dave
Hi All,
Here's the first couple of photos of what could (for an anorak head like myself) be a LOT of photos !lol
The first is the lighter weight olive green 'BAS Anorak' as sold by Westwinds direct and by SOFmilitary.co.uk . It's a great anorak although I think that the 2 bellows pockets on the chest are to big to stuff them full of kit and then move about wothout them having a life of their own ! The deep zipper is good too. The back is scalloped / longer and there is a strap that fixes under the legs to stop the anorak inflating like Marilyn's dress.
The second here is my mods carried out by Westwinds. It's india orange but the flash makes it look far worse than it really is. It's a heavier weight ventile (apparently I got the last of the orange). I got them to put a single chest pocket on it and to shorten the neck zipper. Other than that it is the same as the green one with 2 lower front pockets and longer back with crotch strap. The chest pocket is better IMVHO than the 2 chest pockets. The green one is a size bigger than the orange so I could put it over the orange one (or vice-versa in an emergency).
Unfortunately, being clean and new and having used flash, it is very hard to make out details on the orange smock. If there's interest then I'll take others in natural light. I could also get some photos of me wearing the smocks to give an idea of fit etc.
I forgot to mention that I opted for velcro for practical reasons. I already have zippers and buttons on my vintage anoraks so don't need to have them on these two.
Other vintage anoraks will follow as i track down the discs they are on !
Cheer,
Dave
BellyTank
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Nice one Dudley-
I think there are at least three more Anorak-Anoraks around this place.
B
T
I think there are at least three more Anorak-Anoraks around this place.
B
T
Creeping Past
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Not like Pitt; nowhere near Tibet
I was looking at some paintings in the National Portrait Gallery at dinner time, trying to take my mind off work and everything else, when I came across two paintings of 19th century Arctic explorers in anoraks. Or parkas. But, you know...
Both paintings are action-type portraits by Stephen Pearce: one of Sir Francis Leopold McLintock, dated 1859 and one of Admiral Sir George Strong Nares, dated 1877 (Captain at the time it was painted).
McLintock is wearing a button-front anorak with four pockets. Nares has on a pullover smock type anorak with two waist-level pockets visible that looks quite jaunty. Both are hooded. Both are plain, smooth looking, cream coloured garments.
The construction of these anoraks is not clear, but in some places Pearce shows double rows of white stitching around seams, especially to the front, around button holes and sleeves. Nares' anorak has the relatively new raglan sleeve, and out of the left one a cuff of red (wool?) is poking.
These two garments would appear to be the archetypes of all modern parkas, anoraks and, to some extent, military field coats. They show some similarities to traditional Inuit parkas, but are not as close-fitting (see William Penny's portrait below and photos of skin parkas here).
An earlier painting by Pearce, dated 1853, shows William Penny, seaman and Arctic explorer, wearing a seal skin (or caribou, or something) parka with a single front pocket that might well contain a small telescope.
Given that Penny is in fur-side-out skin, I'm wondering whether the other men are wearing canvas anoraks. The way the anorak fabric hangs suggests canvas. Or is it more likely to be skin tailored fur side in?
Can anyone with more garment history under their belts illuminate my ignorance?
I was looking at some paintings in the National Portrait Gallery at dinner time, trying to take my mind off work and everything else, when I came across two paintings of 19th century Arctic explorers in anoraks. Or parkas. But, you know...
Both paintings are action-type portraits by Stephen Pearce: one of Sir Francis Leopold McLintock, dated 1859 and one of Admiral Sir George Strong Nares, dated 1877 (Captain at the time it was painted).
McLintock is wearing a button-front anorak with four pockets. Nares has on a pullover smock type anorak with two waist-level pockets visible that looks quite jaunty. Both are hooded. Both are plain, smooth looking, cream coloured garments.
The construction of these anoraks is not clear, but in some places Pearce shows double rows of white stitching around seams, especially to the front, around button holes and sleeves. Nares' anorak has the relatively new raglan sleeve, and out of the left one a cuff of red (wool?) is poking.
These two garments would appear to be the archetypes of all modern parkas, anoraks and, to some extent, military field coats. They show some similarities to traditional Inuit parkas, but are not as close-fitting (see William Penny's portrait below and photos of skin parkas here).
An earlier painting by Pearce, dated 1853, shows William Penny, seaman and Arctic explorer, wearing a seal skin (or caribou, or something) parka with a single front pocket that might well contain a small telescope.
Given that Penny is in fur-side-out skin, I'm wondering whether the other men are wearing canvas anoraks. The way the anorak fabric hangs suggests canvas. Or is it more likely to be skin tailored fur side in?
Can anyone with more garment history under their belts illuminate my ignorance?
BellyTank
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The fur-looking one could easily be seal of some kind.
Come winter, there are a lot of seal anoraks on the streets of Scandinavian lands.The other Anoraks could easily be "canvas", or perhaps even buckskin, as tanned by Inuits, that very thin and supple, cloth-like skin.
Don't know that I can comment on anything else here.
Have you Googled Scott, Amundsen and Shackleton for images?
B
T
Come winter, there are a lot of seal anoraks on the streets of Scandinavian lands.The other Anoraks could easily be "canvas", or perhaps even buckskin, as tanned by Inuits, that very thin and supple, cloth-like skin.
Don't know that I can comment on anything else here.
Have you Googled Scott, Amundsen and Shackleton for images?
B
T
Creeping Past
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Thanks for that. A skin outer layer might be the answer.
Re: Scott and the rest. I'm looking for earlier types than those chaps wore.*
Interestingly, McLintock's crew pulled sleds, just like Scott's team.
* Edit: I now see your point. Clues to be had. Post in haste, repent in edits.
Re: Scott and the rest. I'm looking for earlier types than those chaps wore.*
Interestingly, McLintock's crew pulled sleds, just like Scott's team.
* Edit: I now see your point. Clues to be had. Post in haste, repent in edits.
H.Johnson
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Broadly, I think that what appears to differentiate the nature of clothing the early paintings and later photographs appears to be the explorer's attitude to indigenous Artctic peoples. The influence of the 'pioneers' on the later (more successful) explorers is noted.
Generalising, I think it is possible to see two sources of Arctic (and therefore Antarctic) clothing. For instance, Byrd and Nansen respected and learned from Esquimaux, Inuit and Saami, and thus favoured animal skins. Another school of thought (typified by Scott and Shackleton) derived its clothing from naval or military tradition (e.g. Ross, Franklin, etc) and thus favoured canvas or at least textile garments.
Generalising, I think it is possible to see two sources of Arctic (and therefore Antarctic) clothing. For instance, Byrd and Nansen respected and learned from Esquimaux, Inuit and Saami, and thus favoured animal skins. Another school of thought (typified by Scott and Shackleton) derived its clothing from naval or military tradition (e.g. Ross, Franklin, etc) and thus favoured canvas or at least textile garments.
Creeping Past
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Thanks for that. I was assuming linear progress along 'performance' lines and forgetting that cultures (organisational and traditional) have other motors and drivers in play than technology alone.
shortbow
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Could you guys perhaps explain the theory behind the (supposed?) superior efficacy of a closed-front anorak or parka over a garment with a front closure?
If the dim reaches of my failing memory serve at all, it seems that I read once long ago why the lack of even a well constructed front closure is better at keeping the elements out and body warmth in, but at the moment I'm not getting it. Also, off the top of my head, it seems that wearing something that you cannot open up to let excess heat escape would be at least annoying, if not potentially dangerous. I'm sure if anybody knows, you well-studied British inheritors of the British mountaineering and Arctic treking traditions would. I really like the look of Anoraks, want a nice old-timey canvas one, just need to know if it would work for me.
If the dim reaches of my failing memory serve at all, it seems that I read once long ago why the lack of even a well constructed front closure is better at keeping the elements out and body warmth in, but at the moment I'm not getting it. Also, off the top of my head, it seems that wearing something that you cannot open up to let excess heat escape would be at least annoying, if not potentially dangerous. I'm sure if anybody knows, you well-studied British inheritors of the British mountaineering and Arctic treking traditions would. I really like the look of Anoraks, want a nice old-timey canvas one, just need to know if it would work for me.
Dudleydoright
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Front closures
I think that the reality is that the modern anorak follows the Innuit / Eskimeaux tradition. They didn't have zippers, velcro etc back then and there is a lot of extra work in terms of sewing to put a front closure in.
To properly ventilate an anorak requires such a deep front zipper that you may as well have a full length one.
I just like them because the look cool IMVHO.
Cheers,
DDR
I think that the reality is that the modern anorak follows the Innuit / Eskimeaux tradition. They didn't have zippers, velcro etc back then and there is a lot of extra work in terms of sewing to put a front closure in.
To properly ventilate an anorak requires such a deep front zipper that you may as well have a full length one.
I just like them because the look cool IMVHO.
Cheers,
DDR
BellyTank
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Quite.
An Anorak should be a pullover, to be an "Anorak",
otherwise, it may be in danger of "Parkerisation"
B
T
An Anorak should be a pullover, to be an "Anorak",
otherwise, it may be in danger of "Parkerisation"
B
T
shortbow
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Ta very much for the get backs, but still I am wondering the "why" of the modern (or vintage Anorak in the face of similar garments that are easier to get in and out of and which allow a more effective temperature/perspiration control.
Surely there must be more going on than just a fashion statement?
Surely there must be more going on than just a fashion statement?
Creeping Past
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Anyone got a para silk anorak/windproof? What are the benefits of these?
Reviving this thread a bit, I found these links, though I'm not sure if it meets any of the aforementioned vintage criteria:
http://www.genuinearmysurplus.co.uk/pages/products/detail/rowid=692
http://go-armynavy.com/index.php/collectibles/ww2-10th-mountain-division-anorak.html
http://www.advmilitaria.com/features/products.html (no photo)
http://www.epicmilitaria.com/product.php/42/gebirgsjager-winter-anorak-- I think this is the same one Daniel Jones posted last year?
Apparently, Lost Battalion makes a pricey German reproduction as well. At any road, for what it's worth.
http://www.genuinearmysurplus.co.uk/pages/products/detail/rowid=692
http://go-armynavy.com/index.php/collectibles/ww2-10th-mountain-division-anorak.html
http://www.advmilitaria.com/features/products.html (no photo)
http://www.epicmilitaria.com/product.php/42/gebirgsjager-winter-anorak-- I think this is the same one Daniel Jones posted last year?
Apparently, Lost Battalion makes a pricey German reproduction as well. At any road, for what it's worth.
H.Johnson
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Creeping Past said:
A zoot-suit? Top and trousers made from parachute silk? Yes. I used to have one, bought from SoF in the old days. They are reasonably windproof (and marginally shower resistant) and pack away small, but don't last long under heavy use.
They do have vintage heritage, of course. I'm afraid to say I replaced mine with modern windproof kit for reasons of longevity. I suppose that in service you'd replace your 'zoot' by making another one when it wore out.
H.Johnson
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shortbow said:
There is. In a seriously cold climate temperature control isn't usually an issue - staying warm is and an anorak is good at that. If you spend most of your time in your clothing taking it on an off isn't an issue. Keeping you alive is.
Dudleydoright
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Zoot suit
We had zoot suits made up for my section. They were more of a pose than anything. A bit like US paras using camo parachute cut-outs for neck scarves. They were used under our windproofs in really cold, windy weather and as sleep suits in hot climates. Back in the day they were the best that was out there although I always had misgivings as they won't do you a lot of good if someone is using molotov cocktails or there's fire nearby.
Don't buy one -- there's plenty more practical and durable items of clothing out there.
Dave
Creeping Past said:
We had zoot suits made up for my section. They were more of a pose than anything. A bit like US paras using camo parachute cut-outs for neck scarves. They were used under our windproofs in really cold, windy weather and as sleep suits in hot climates. Back in the day they were the best that was out there although I always had misgivings as they won't do you a lot of good if someone is using molotov cocktails or there's fire nearby.
Don't buy one -- there's plenty more practical and durable items of clothing out there.
Dave
H.Johnson
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Ultimate vintage anorak
Some time ago this thread prompted me to think of my 'ideal' or 'ultimate' anorak. I set myself the following specification:
- It must have genuine 'roots' - connected to the 1960s at the latest;
- It must be made from Ventile (r) or similar finely woven windproof cotton;
- It must have white string drawcords, one chest and two hip pockets*;
- It must fit into a pocket when folded;
- It must be available commercially - not a 'one off' or home made;
- It must have knitted windcuffs (a 'bit of a thing' of mine);
- It must have a 'classic' zip (e.g. a Lightning or Aero);
- It must not cost more than 15GBP, new.
* Like those in the film 'The Heroes of Telemark'.
What met all of the above criteria best, and what I ended up with, was a modified Cadets Windproof Smock (cost 5 GBP in unissued condition from Endicotts) with spare Para Smock cuffs sewn on. Total cost around 12 GBP.
Over a summer or rigorous testing (including some intense strolling and scone eating in the most demanding tea rooms) it has defeated all rivals (including an original 1940s anorak by Uniform Brand) and now stands alone as my own personal 'ultimate vintage anorak'. I can recommend one.
Some time ago this thread prompted me to think of my 'ideal' or 'ultimate' anorak. I set myself the following specification:
- It must have genuine 'roots' - connected to the 1960s at the latest;
- It must be made from Ventile (r) or similar finely woven windproof cotton;
- It must have white string drawcords, one chest and two hip pockets*;
- It must fit into a pocket when folded;
- It must be available commercially - not a 'one off' or home made;
- It must have knitted windcuffs (a 'bit of a thing' of mine);
- It must have a 'classic' zip (e.g. a Lightning or Aero);
- It must not cost more than 15GBP, new.
* Like those in the film 'The Heroes of Telemark'.
What met all of the above criteria best, and what I ended up with, was a modified Cadets Windproof Smock (cost 5 GBP in unissued condition from Endicotts) with spare Para Smock cuffs sewn on. Total cost around 12 GBP.
Over a summer or rigorous testing (including some intense strolling and scone eating in the most demanding tea rooms) it has defeated all rivals (including an original 1940s anorak by Uniform Brand) and now stands alone as my own personal 'ultimate vintage anorak'. I can recommend one.
Creeping Past
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How does Steve Kiddle's fine cotton twill anorak fit with your demanding spec:
It must have genuine 'roots' - connected to the 1960s at the latest
Yes. It's a 40s-type pattern.
- It must be made from Ventile (r) or similar finely woven windproof cotton;
Yes
- It must have white string drawcords, one chest and two hip pockets*;
Y & N. Two top, two hip
- It must fit into a pocket when folded;
N
- It must be available commercially - not a 'one off' or home made;
Y
- It must have knitted windcuffs (a 'bit of a thing' of mine);
N
- It must have a 'classic' zip (e.g. a Lightning or Aero);
N/A, it's a pullvoer
- It must not cost more than 15GBP, new.
N
* Like those in the film 'The Heroes of Telemark'.
Y. Mine's blue.
I'm still looking for the perfect one. As, I think, we all are...
It must have genuine 'roots' - connected to the 1960s at the latest
Yes. It's a 40s-type pattern.
- It must be made from Ventile (r) or similar finely woven windproof cotton;
Yes
- It must have white string drawcords, one chest and two hip pockets*;
Y & N. Two top, two hip
- It must fit into a pocket when folded;
N
- It must be available commercially - not a 'one off' or home made;
Y
- It must have knitted windcuffs (a 'bit of a thing' of mine);
N
- It must have a 'classic' zip (e.g. a Lightning or Aero);
N/A, it's a pullvoer
- It must not cost more than 15GBP, new.
N
* Like those in the film 'The Heroes of Telemark'.
Y. Mine's blue.
I'm still looking for the perfect one. As, I think, we all are...
H.Johnson
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Mr. Past,
Indeed, Mr. Kiddle's anorak (I'm assuming you mean the one based on the WW2 Smock Windproof) is a fine garment.
I have worn a similar (not one of his) and it was OK, but would need windcuffs adding (as did the Cadet Smock) - this observation was often expressed in a variety of vernacular forms in WW2! They also lack the vital (to me) throat zip - that exciting glint of brass and the inimitable profile of a 'Lightning' puller are what 'make' the garment for me.
Most of all, may I respectfully observe, Mr. Kiddle's offering is a reproduction, and for me the 'ideal anorak' has to be genuinely old (albeit 1950s or 60s in the case of the Cadet Smock). Most of all, I doubt that Mr. Kiddle (affable chap that he is) would part with one for less than 15 BGP.
In truth, we all have our own idea of the 'ultimate' anorak and should enjoy our own version of that ideal.
Indeed, Mr. Kiddle's anorak (I'm assuming you mean the one based on the WW2 Smock Windproof) is a fine garment.
I have worn a similar (not one of his) and it was OK, but would need windcuffs adding (as did the Cadet Smock) - this observation was often expressed in a variety of vernacular forms in WW2! They also lack the vital (to me) throat zip - that exciting glint of brass and the inimitable profile of a 'Lightning' puller are what 'make' the garment for me.
Most of all, may I respectfully observe, Mr. Kiddle's offering is a reproduction, and for me the 'ideal anorak' has to be genuinely old (albeit 1950s or 60s in the case of the Cadet Smock). Most of all, I doubt that Mr. Kiddle (affable chap that he is) would part with one for less than 15 BGP.
In truth, we all have our own idea of the 'ultimate' anorak and should enjoy our own version of that ideal.
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