"Believe-It-Or-Not Borsalinos"

[HarpPlayerGene]

{I originally posted a thread titled "Borsalino Befuddlement" asking about sizing and received the information I was seeking. Thanks! This seperate topic evolved out of that thread and I hope I get some details or links to past coverage of the issue from you Loungers on this:}

I was recently reminded about the WWII vintage Bulgarian Borsalino controversy which I've heard sketchy notions about. Counterfeits? The hats I've got are of such fine construction and have such an authentic old vibe that it's hard to believe they aren't vintage. I got them from a very reputable seller and I have 44 hats in my collection (about half from 40s and 50s) for comparison to what a genuinely vintage hat "feels" like.

I am really interested in learning more about this subject. I wouldn't put it past some people to try to put things past others but these hats are of such amazing quality construction and detail that it seems one would have to invest a lot of capital to generate a counterfeit that sells for less or about the same as a new, off-the-assembly line hat from one of todays big companies.

Check the photos of mine in the links below and guys, let me know what you think about their potential for authenticity. Maybe this should be a thread of its own but I'm OK with stringing it along under the original heading of "Borsalino Befuddlement". Seems appropriate enough, no?
http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/i...Borsalino1930/
http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/i...salino 1935/

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

SOME ADDITIONAL DETAIL

I do not believe your hats are counterfeit, I also do not believe that they are from the 30's....not even close.

Well, do tell.

I'm interested in learing more. How do you know what era they are from? What date do you think?

I only base my 1930 and 1935 guess on two things:
1) According to the disputed lore, some Borsolinos were supplied to a particular haberdashery in Zophia, Bulgaria which, in the early stages of - or during - Europe's experience with WWII, was shut down and locked up with a stock of hats inside. Supposedly, they remained for years until discovered a decade or two ago. These hats bear the stamp of that store and WWII broke out in Europe well before our 1941 declaration on Japan and Germany's declaration on the U.S.
2) I have read on this site that with vintage Borsalinos, the first two numbers in the seriel number indicate the year of manufacture. Some have reported their numbers to be of the kind that really don't make sense as a year, but the "30.." and the "35.." on my hats sort of support the 'early-stages-of-WWII-in-Europe' story. In fact, the one beginning in "30.." appears to probably have been sold and circulated rather than having been stored where the other one is pristine. An interesting detail to me considering the relative dates as they apply to war history.

In any event, I am not hung up on deluding myself about it. I readily admit that the story is a lot to swallow. I really would just like to learn more about what may be the facts.

So far, I've learned that some posters hint at doubt about "new" vintage hats and you have shared what you think my hats are not. I am intriged by the hints and the omissions in your posts folks. However, they leave me with the want for more than that.

I'm going to risk starting a new thread on this so perhaps more opinios can chime in. I hope thats OK. Look for it under the heading: "Believe It Or Not Borsalinos".

This site has got to be the best bet for me to learn about this. I'm all eyes and ears.....

G

 

[tonyb]

Well, Gene, I'd like to look at your photos, but when I click on the link it opens MY photobucket account. Don't know why that is, but it is.

I don't have any way of knowing just how old your Borsalinos are, but I concur with your reasons for disputing that they aren't genuine Borsalinos. And old Borsalinos, at that. Yup, counterfeiting them would be an awful lot of trouble to go through just to sell them for less than new ones cost.

 

[carouselvic]

Gene I did not mean for my post to in any way come-off as mean spirted. WWII started in 1939 when Germany invaded Poland. That Borsalino numbering system for "old" borsalinos just does not work. One of your hats lacks a sewn sweatband joint which might denote an older model, but I am not sure that is a sure-fired acid test. I like your hats a lot but I just don't think that they go back to the thirties, but that is just my opinion.

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

Well, Gene, I'd like to look at your photos, but when I click on the link it opens MY photobucket account. Don't know why that is, but it is.

I don't have any way of knowing just how old your Borsalinos are, but I concur with your reasons for disputing that they aren't genuine Borsalinos. And old Borsalinos, at that. Yup, counterfeiting them would be an awful lot of trouble to go through just to sell them for less than new ones cost.

I gotcha'. The idea that some Borsalinos which are presented as vintage but are actually "new" usually surrounds the particular story I referenced about the WWII-Zophia-Bulgaria-Locked-Up-In-A-Warehouse-For-Sixty-Years-And-Then-Discovered-And-Brought-To-The-Collectors-Market schtick. The hats seem so perfectly new that some can't believe it.

I'm not sure about the voracity of the original story, and at the same time some of the people who cast serious doubt on it or call them outright forgeries have never held one of them in their own hands.

So, I hope to solicit more info about this particular 'controversy', if you will. Where did the story orignate? Is it proven true or false? Why are some unconvinced or skeptical?...

http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii79/harpplayergene/BrownBorsalino1930/
http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii79/harpplayergene/Blue Borsalino 1935/

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

Gene I did not mean for my post to in any way come-off as mean spirted. WWII started in 1939 when Germany invaded Poland. That Borsalino numbering system for "old" borsalinos just does not work. One of your hats lacks a sewn sweatband joint which might denote an older model, but I am not sure that is a sure-fired acid test. I like your hats a lot but I just don't think that they go back to the thirties, but that is just my opinion.

Oh man, no way did I think that! I apologize back atcha' if my notes carried some unintended 'tone' to them. I really am looking for "just the facts" and sometimes get wrapped up in that pursuit to the exclusion of the best manners. Not only do I have thick skin when necessary, it just isn't necessary around here because you and the rest of the Loungers are total class!

Also, thanks for the added info. I really do mean that I want to learn about this stuff so don't hold back. I got excited about those numbers but what you say makes sense. I was hoping it could be true and considering that the Nazi movement was a growing and obvious threat even before invading Poland.

In any event, I am most interested in someone posting who is authoratative on the WWII Zophia Warehouse legend. True or false?

 

[Stoney]

Gene,

Everything about the hat in the above links speaks 1930s to me. The block, the liner, with embroidery and ivory coloring. The liner looks like it's old and not a forgery. The tags under the band also look correct. The catch is the reeded sweatband. Maybe if it was late 30s but I would think a mid 30s hat or earlier would most likely have an unreeded sweatband, even a Borsalino. Of course it's not impossible Borsalino is known for making quality hats and could have been ahead of the pack with regards to reeded sweatbands, just unlikely IMHO. I have two Borsos that are unreeded and I doubt that they date to the mid thirties or earlier.Regardless of what the date of manufacture really was, it is an awesome hat.:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

Edit: Here is one more thing to ponder. Given that there is really a limited market for items such as this, why would anyone bother making fake vintage Borsalino hats when there are items easier to forge that carry a much higher price tag and have a larger marketbase?

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

Thanks, Stoney, on behalf of my hats - and for the info!

I would, of course, like to believe that they are '30s vintage - and the brown one does seem significantly older than the blue one, but anything's possible I guess. For instance the blue one has a clear (plastic?) protector in the crown of the liner where the brown one appears to come from before they had perfected that technique and is simply fine quality, three-tone silk or satin.

I really am still curious to get some detailed scoop on that whole 'Zophia, Bulgaria Stash' business. It seems obvious that these are real Borso's, that they are old and that they are from that region. But is the story of being locked in the warehouse and preserved as if in a time capsule really to be believed? If so, what were the circumstances that caused Simeon Zlateff to get out of town? When were the doors locked? That would give some insight to what year the hats were which were stored inside.

Hoping for some info on that...

Thx all,
Gene