Best currently available denim, for the money and overall?

[dudewuttheheck]

I hear you on the 517s.

Got a pair of 1990s U.S. made 517s that outspec most anything out today. 7 belt loops, high rise, deep pockets, heavy stiff denim. Some newer "high end" selvedge jeans don't even have felled inseams. These 517s have very thick double felled inseams. The fabric feels like 15 oz. denim. Very nicely finished.

If Levi's ever made anything with more solid construction I'd like to see it. They're not stiff enough to stand up by themselves but they're pretty heavy. They're red tabs, so they're more detailed than the orange tabs that came out during that era.

The rigid 517s seem to have been cut oversized. Despite being Sanforized they shrink to size after a few washings, as I recall. I haven't washed them yet. After I set in creases sufficiently I'm thinking of eventually soaking them so the shrinkage will be contoured to my fit. Never tried it before. Anyone know if you could use Shrink To Fit techniques on the old Sanforized US made rigid 517s or 505s? They do, after all, seem to shrink noticeably.

Edward, what's the country of manufacture on those 1941 jeans? They look about as nice as the LVC 1933s at a much better price. At this point I think much of the LVC product's made places like Turkey and Vietnam.

And dwth, I checked out some Japan Blue jeans on line. They look nice, traditional and near the price of Unbranded. How's the construction on those? Double felled inseams? Are even their non-selvedge jeans made in Japan?

I'll have to check the inseams, but I think they use regular flat felled inseams. As far as I know, everything they make is made in Japan. They are (IMO) a mid-high level company, just a slightly less specialized version of Momotaro. The great thing about both companies is that they are owned by a fabric company, and therefore all of their fabrics are produced exclusively for them in Japan. I am pretty sure this guarantees that everything they have is made in Japan.

 

[Melvin]

I wear Momotaro and Japan Blue. Both of which are owned by the same company and are known for extremely high quality. I used to wear Naked and Famous which IMO is of higher quality than a lot of people give them credit for. I would say they are a pretty good value. However, I think Japan Blue and Rogue Territory are probably some of the best bang for buck brands out there for denim. If you have under $100, then probably Unbranded is a good bet.

If money is no object, then there is a myriad of brands out there. Momotaro is my personal favorite, but there are too many out there to list, with many having different distinctions:

Momotaro is the only fully in-house company and has a lot of unique weft colors such as blue, black, cobalt, and brown, Iron Heart and Samurai have extremely heavy fabrics, The Flat Head jeans fade extremely quickly, Pure Blue Japan is known for their stubby texture and uniquely colored wefts, etc. These jeans cost as much as they do as much for their unique traits as their quality and manufacturing. As such, I think Japan Blue is nearly equal in quality to its big brother Momotaro, but doesn't have some of the extra detailing that Momotaro has such as extra hidden rivets, more weft colors, etc.

I think brands like Japan Blue, Rogue Territory, 3Sixteen, and Sugar Cane offer the best balance between quality and price.

Check out the inseam on these Momotaro jeans. Looks like they're not felled:

Was looking at images of other expensive Japanese brands like Studio D'Artisan. They don't have felled inseams either. Just a sewed down overlock. I guess these companies figure that since nobody's going to be doing much physical labor in $300 jeans they don't have to make the inseams especially strong?

I'm curious how many other people have expensive jeans with non-felled inseams? It seems like a ridiculous economy of production for a high end product. Round House work pants have triple-felled seams throughout the garment.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Check out the inseam on these Momotaro jeans. Looks like they're not felled:

Was looking at images of other expensive Japanese brands like Studio D'Artisan. They don't have felled inseams either. Just a sewed down overlock. I guess these companies figure that since nobody's going to be doing much physical labor in $300 jeans they don't have to make the inseams especially strong?

I'm curious how many other people have expensive jeans with non-felled inseams? It seems like a ridiculous economy of production for a high end product. Round House work pants have triple-felled seams throughout the garment.

Heck, some Iron Hearts aren't even selvedge. Go figure. At the same time, I have never seen or heard of any Japanese denim have inseam issues and I've look at quite a few pairs. I know that a lot of people do heavy physical labor in Iron Heart jeans and none of them have had problems with the inseams. If the failure rate is basically zero, then I don't see the problem.

If anything, the crotch is pretty much always the issue with raw denim

 

[Blackadder]

I hear you on the 517s.

Got a pair of 1990s U.S. made 517s that outspec most anything out today. 7 belt loops, high rise, deep pockets, heavy stiff denim. Some newer "high end" selvedge jeans don't even have felled inseams. These 517s have very thick double felled inseams. The fabric feels like 15 oz. denim. Very nicely finished.

If Levi's ever made anything with more solid construction I'd like to see it. They're not stiff enough to stand up by themselves but they're pretty heavy. They're red tabs, so they're more detailed than the orange tabs that came out during that era.

The rigid 517s seem to have been cut oversized. Despite being Sanforized they shrink to size after a few washings, as I recall. I haven't washed them yet. After I set in creases sufficiently I'm thinking of eventually soaking them so the shrinkage will be contoured to my fit. Never tried it before. Anyone know if you could use Shrink To Fit techniques on the old Sanforized US made rigid 517s or 505s? They do, after all, seem to shrink noticeably.

Edward, what's the country of manufacture on those 1941 jeans? They look about as nice as the LVC 1933s at a much better price. At this point I think much of the LVC product's made places like Turkey and Vietnam.

And dwth, I checked out some Japan Blue jeans on line. They look nice, traditional and near the price of Unbranded. How's the construction on those? Double felled inseams? Are even their non-selvedge jeans made in Japan?

The 517 are indeed oversized and coupled with the fact that they are lower rise than the 501s, you can actually downsize on them. My experience with the 517 rigid (both orange tab from the 80s and the red tab from the 90s) is that they have very little shrinkage. Having said that, I only machine wash cold and never dry my jeans in a dryer.
I think the LVC has gone back to being made in the States since last season. I just bought a pair of the Spring Bottom Pants and they are indeed made in the States.

 

[Blackadder]

Check out the inseam on these Momotaro jeans. Looks like they're not felled:

Was looking at images of other expensive Japanese brands like Studio D'Artisan. They don't have felled inseams either. Just a sewed down overlock. I guess these companies figure that since nobody's going to be doing much physical labor in $300 jeans they don't have to make the inseams especially strong?

I'm curious how many other people have expensive jeans with non-felled inseams? It seems like a ridiculous economy of production for a high end product. Round House work pants have triple-felled seams throughout the garment.

If that's what you are looking for, I'd suggest you take a look at the Heller's Cafe and Copper King by Warehouse jeans.
http://www.ware-house.co.jp/?mode=cate&cbid=1642006&csid=0

 

[andrewrivas]

If cost is no object, I'd look at Roy Jeans (Oakland, CA) and R by 45RPM (Japan)

 

[Melvin]

I agree. The article does not say that projector loom is bad. I have some 90s made in USA 501s too. The indigo used on the contemporary Levi's is indeed different given the way the jeans fade which begs the question of the composition and naturalness of the indigo. I have nothing against non-selvedge jeans as I love boot cut jeans like 517 and I hate it when those Japanese jeans bleed all over my boots. But then they start making very affordable selvedge jeans and suddenly the contemporary Levi's seem outclassed. Apart from the possible change of indigo formula and the starch you mentioned, the cotton threads could also be quite different.

Oh, I don't think the "Made in USA" standard production from the 1990s and earlier is necessarily outclassed. Quality of finish on the dead stock jeans I've bought has been impressive. What's good denim: something slubby that fades quickly or something even surfaced that doesn't fade easily? Most people would probably still say the latter: that was the goal of denim production for practical use.

I've been working on one pair of dead stock 501s for over 4 years and probably several hundred wears. Infrequent washes but though the fade patterns are O.K. and contrasty, they're nowhere near as prominent as more artisanal current jeans that seem designed to fade quickly.

Maybe I'm used to more modern jeans but I find the rise of the 517s relatively high.

What's interesting about the fit of the 517s, when the fit is oversized (these are from the 1990s, not sure if the fit changed), is with the extra length cuffed the overall profile is about the same as pre-1947 501s only more fitted around the hips, front and back. The legs are looser like 1930s 501s. Whatever flare there is isn't really noticeable as such. They're fitted with wider legs. All that's missing almost is a buckle on the back.

The back pockets are also noticeably larger than those on 501s and extend about to the top of the hamstrings. The front pockets, in contrast, open about at the hip bone which makes it somewhat difficult to put things in and take things out.

I wonder if the fit I'm describing is particular to 1990s 517s or whether it changed over the years? You don't find the vagaries of 517 cut as thoroughly documented as the 501s.

If cost is no object, I'd look at Roy Jeans (Oakland, CA) and R by 45RPM (Japan)

As far as I know Roy's an artisanal one man company. I don't know R by 45RPM.

What's interesting in the transformation of jeans into a luxury category is:

1) almost by definition they have to be made of denim which, selvedge or otherwise, is an inherently low cost material.

2) the aesthetic ideal is rugged. This is proletarian work clothing. A big selling point of the expensive stuff is how easily the jeans can be made to look like lots of work has been done in them. In a way this defies conventional notions of luxury goods.

Still, Roy's not pricier than the better Japanese brands. What's quality like? Anyone ever owned them?

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Oh, I don't think the "Made in USA" standard production from the 1990s and earlier is necessarily outclassed. Quality of finish on the dead stock jeans I've bought has been impressive. What's good denim: something slubby that fades quickly or something even surfaced that doesn't fade easily? Most people would probably still say the latter: that was the goal of denim production for practical use.

I've been working on one pair of dead stock 501s for over 4 years and probably several hundred wears. Infrequent washes but though the fade patterns are O.K. and contrasty, they're nowhere near as prominent as more artisanal current jeans that seem designed to fade quickly.

Maybe I'm used to more modern jeans but I find the rise of the 517s relatively high.

What's interesting about the fit of the 517s, when the fit is oversized (these are from the 1990s, not sure if the fit changed), is with the extra length cuffed the overall profile is about the same as pre-1947 501s only more fitted around the hips, front and back. The legs are looser like 1930s 501s. Whatever flare there is isn't really noticeable as such. They're fitted with wider legs. All that's missing almost is a buckle on the back.

The back pockets are also noticeably larger than those on 501s and extend about to the top of the hamstrings. The front pockets, in contrast, open about at the hip bone which makes it somewhat difficult to put things in and take things out.

I wonder if the fit I'm describing is particular to 1990s 517s or whether it changed over the years? You don't find the vagaries of 517 cut as thoroughly documented as the 501s.



As far as I know Roy's an artisanal one man company. I don't know R by 45RPM.

What's interesting in the transformation of jeans into a luxury category is:

1) almost by definition they have to be made of denim which, selvedge or otherwise, is an inherently low cost material.

2) the aesthetic ideal is rugged. This is proletarian work clothing. A big selling point of the expensive stuff is how easily the jeans can be made to look like lots of work has been done in them. In a way this defies conventional notions of luxury goods.

Still, Roy's not pricier than the better Japanese brands. What's quality like? Anyone ever owned them?

I have never owned Roy jeans, but people rave about them. WH Ranch Dungarees is another one man brand in the US who doesn't cost more than most Japanese brands.

Not all Japanese brands are insane about fading. That is one of the things I like a lot about Momotaro... their jeans in general fade quite slowly and unlike brands like The Flat Head and others, they don't talk about fading all the time, they just make high quality jeans. WH Ranch is like that as well. They don't talk the fade talk, just make a good product. There are other brands like that (Japanese and other) who aren't super fade-oriented, but yes some are all about fades.

 

[Aether]

I've got quite a few pairs of Japanese jeans, my favourites are either a black pair by Samurai in 17oz, or a wider legged cinch-back type by Kapital.

In respect of the non felled inseams, I think it's just from an aesthetic point of view - generally the models that they're based on weren't double felled. Durability wise if you wear your jeans tight they'll wear out quicker than a looser pair, and all cotton thread - whilst more period correct - isn't as durable as a poly cotton construction. Also if your not concerned too much with getting highly contrasted fades, then wash the jeans once in a while and they'll last longer!

 

[Don Tomaso]

Try Lee 101 normal fit. Very nice.

 

[Blackadder]

Oh, I don't think the "Made in USA" standard production from the 1990s and earlier is necessarily outclassed. Quality of finish on the dead stock jeans I've bought has been impressive. What's good denim: something slubby that fades quickly or something even surfaced that doesn't fade easily? Most people would probably still say the latter: that was the goal of denim production for practical use.

I've been working on one pair of dead stock 501s for over 4 years and probably several hundred wears. Infrequent washes but though the fade patterns are O.K. and contrasty, they're nowhere near as prominent as more artisanal current jeans that seem designed to fade quickly.

Maybe I'm used to more modern jeans but I find the rise of the 517s relatively high.

What's interesting about the fit of the 517s, when the fit is oversized (these are from the 1990s, not sure if the fit changed), is with the extra length cuffed the overall profile is about the same as pre-1947 501s only more fitted around the hips, front and back. The legs are looser like 1930s 501s. Whatever flare there is isn't really noticeable as such. They're fitted with wider legs. All that's missing almost is a buckle on the back.

The back pockets are also noticeably larger than those on 501s and extend about to the top of the hamstrings. The front pockets, in contrast, open about at the hip bone which makes it somewhat difficult to put things in and take things out.

I wonder if the fit I'm describing is particular to 1990s 517s or whether it changed over the years? You don't find the vagaries of 517 cut as thoroughly documented as the 501s.



As far as I know Roy's an artisanal one man company. I don't know R by 45RPM.

What's interesting in the transformation of jeans into a luxury category is:

1) almost by definition they have to be made of denim which, selvedge or otherwise, is an inherently low cost material.

2) the aesthetic ideal is rugged. This is proletarian work clothing. A big selling point of the expensive stuff is how easily the jeans can be made to look like lots of work has been done in them. In a way this defies conventional notions of luxury goods.

Still, Roy's not pricier than the better Japanese brands. What's quality like? Anyone ever owned them?

When I say outclassed, I mean the contemporary Levi's made in Mexico, Turkey, Thailand etc outclassed by the 100% made in Japan down to the rivets USD 70 Kojima Genes. I also own some new Mexican made Rodeo approved Wranglers which are very rugged and durable jeans if that's the quality on which ppl based their choice on then they are probably even better than anything else Levi's or anyone else put into the market at present.
The 517s are indeed mid rise and wide comfort fit compared to the slim bootcut 527. As to the flared opening, they are noticeable if you have huge thighs.