Felt Quality of Vintage lids?

[dawgvet]

I've always heard of the superior felt quality of vintage hats as opposed to the production stuff of today. I do believe that it's true, but I wonder what makes the difference? Did they use higher percentages of beaver or other better fur, better pouncing techniques, or different felting methods? We read where alot of the machines used to make hats today are the same ones from yesteryear, so what makes the difference? Also, does anyone know the specific fur content, especially beaver amount, of any of the more common grades of vintage felt such as Royal Stetson vs Sovereign Stetson, etc? Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Jedidiah

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

My feelings on this are several. First of all many hat makers no longer use the same process to make the felt as they used to. Second since hat making has contracted so much there aren't as many expert employees to go around as there used to be. Lastly, some hat making processes aren't even possible anymore due to not being able to get certain materials or use certain processes. Cost cutting, fewer customers... there's LOTS of reasons why moden production hats may not be as nice as older ones.

I do not include specialty shops, individual craftsmen or handmade hats in the above. Just factory made hats.

 

[scottyrocks]

Much of it has to do with the felting process itself. Mercury is no longer used.

 

[rlk]

The Mercury is mythological nonsense. Banned totally USA in 1941 and dropped mostly before then and even earlier in France. Not used for very light colored furs even before. It was applied to the pelt before the fur was sliced off and other substances work just fine to efficiently raise the barbs of the fur fibers. There are lots of generalizations with limited validity on the entire subject of vintage quality. It can best be said that average standards and quality were higher with all the benefits of scale and skilled labor force for a large competitive market.

 

[Pompidou]

It's just natural selection at work. Only quality hats withstood the test of time, and thus, they're the only examples we have. It goes without saying that the only hats that'll survive a lifetime are the hats made to survive a lifetime. Come 100 years from now, and our great great grandkids will be talking about how the only hat maker of our generation was Vintage Silhouettes, because none of the others survived. That's what I think, anyway. I bet there were more lousy hats for sale in the past than quality ones, but lousy doesn't last, and doesn't entice the owner to treasure it.

 

[fmw]

It's just natural selection at work. Only quality hats withstood the test of time, and thus, they're the only examples we have. It goes without saying that the only hats that'll survive a lifetime are the hats made to survive a lifetime. Come 100 years from now, and our great great grandkids will be talking about how the only hat maker of our generation was Vintage Silhouettes, because none of the others survived. That's what I think, anyway. I bet there were more lousy hats for sale in the past than quality ones, but lousy doesn't last, and doesn't entice the owner to treasure it.

Bingo. I think this post hit the nail on the head.

I've also read a lot about felt stiffness. I wonder if it relates to felt quality. It may relate more to the way hats are finished. Hats have factory creases these days and likely have more sizing in the felt to help hold that crease. For a modern felt hat customer, losing the shape of the hat would be viewed as a quality issue. And the wearer might not have a hatter available to reblock it. I don't have a lot of experience but I do have a brand new Stetson Open Road which is stiffer than my old Western hats. The felt, however, is of better quality and better finished. I find the stiffness perfectly acceptable as the hat is comfortable to wear. In other words, I wonder if older hats were rreally made of better felt or better techniques. They may just have been made for the preferences of the time and infrastructure of the time. After all, hat shops were common back then. They are rare today. There isn't a hat shop within 100 miles of my place, for example.

 

[gtdean48]

The process is relatively the same but some other factors come into play IMHO. The quality of the pelts plus the aging of felt blanks are 2 that I consider impacting the difference. Modern practices prohibit letting the blanks "age" & "felt" for long periods of time like in the past = get it to market "just in time" versus like a wine, letting it age. I think the fur pelts even 50 years ago are different than what is harvested now. The hats from back then had a better starting position than today & were let reach a higher density before being finished into a hat.

 

[fmw]

Would you view this as a subtle difference or a marked one? The reason I ask is that people praise the Akubra hats as having quality similar to the old hats. Since I doubt there are beavers running wild in Australia, they must aquire fur from some place. Probably where everybody else does. What would make people prefer one of these hats to a Stetson or a Dobbs?

 

[gtdean48]

I would say it is a marked one. I have bought western Stetsons & Resistols for the last 30 years & Akubras in the last 5 or so. I don't have a Heritage grade Akubra, just Imperial & 1 Squatter in Featherweight. Looking at the Imperial Akubras, the felt is comparable quality to the 4X & 10X American brands but not finished as nicely. I have done additional pouncing to the Akubras to knock off some of the roughness.

 

[handlebar bart]

Would you view this as a subtle difference or a marked one? The reason I ask is that people praise the Akubra hats as having quality similar to the old hats. Since I doubt there are beavers running wild in Australia, they must aquire fur from some place. Probably where everybody else does. What would make people prefer one of these hats to a Stetson or a Dobbs?

In the case of Akubra and others the overwhelming majority of the fur felt hats are rabbit/hare.

 

[rlk]

It's just natural selection at work. Only quality hats withstood the test of time, and thus, they're the only examples we have. It goes without saying that the only hats that'll survive a lifetime are the hats made to survive a lifetime. Come 100 years from now, and our great great grandkids will be talking about how the only hat maker of our generation was Vintage Silhouettes, because none of the others survived. That's what I think, anyway. I bet there were more lousy hats for sale in the past than quality ones, but lousy doesn't last, and doesn't entice the owner to treasure it.

Most of the survivors are hats put away and seldom or never worn. A hat that was worn regularly would also be cleaned regularly and eventually be replaced--or have the sweatband replaced at least. If no one replaces their hats from either wear or style changes then no new hats are sold(and businesses close). If you go by ebay description almost no vintage hats were ever worn.

 

[jimmy the lid]

Most of the survivors are hats put away and seldom or never worn.

Agreed. The Darwinian analogy is inapt for that reason. For purposes of the original question posed -- take a vintage NOS hat out of its box and compare it with a new off-the-shelf hat. I think that's what dawgvet is asking about.

While I'm at it -- let me just point out that this question has been discussed for as long as this Forum has been around. That's not said to preclude any new discussion. But -- some of the most valuable responses you will find to your question, dawgvet, are to be found by rolling up your sleeves and digging around here a bit. Some of the previous discussions have included hatters, along with folks who have some pretty extensive vintage collections, and the back and forth is informative -- and, at times, fairly entertaining...

Cheers,
JtL

 

[fmw]

In the case of Akubra and others the overwhelming majority of the fur felt hats are rabbit/hare.

Plenty of rabbits in Australia. Thanks.

 

[Tango Yankee]

Hats have factory creases these days and likely have more sizing in the felt to help hold that crease. For a modern felt hat customer, losing the shape of the hat would be viewed as a quality issue. And the wearer might not have a hatter available to reblock it.

For a modern hat customer it's also an ignorance issue. In the early '80s I had a white fedora, probably wool felt. It got dirty. I took it to a dry cleaners for cleaning, and it came back open crown with a gaudy feather added to the ribbon. I, not knowing any better, was very upset as I'd expected it to come back creased the same way it went in. As it was, it looked to me like a pimp hat as seen in '70s movies.

In retrospect I'm embarrased by my raising cain about it due to my own ignorance. The poor counter clerk didn't know anything more about hats than I, and of course they sent the stuff out to a central location so there wasn't anyone in the shop that could educate me, to show me that I could crease it myself. I suppose that anyone new to hats who hasn't found this forum or hasn't a real hat shop available would react the same.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[rlk]

Agreed. The Darwinian analogy in inapt for that reason. For purposes of the original question posed -- take a NOS hat out of its box and compare it with a new off-the-shelf hat. I think that's what dawgvet is asking about.

While I'm at it -- let me just point out that this question has been discussed for as long as this Forum has been around. That's not said to preclude any new discussion. But -- some of the most valuable responses you will find to your question, dawgvet, are to be found by rolling up your sleeves and digging around here a bit. Some of the previous discussions have included hatters, along with folks who have some pretty extensive vintage collections, and the back and forth is informative -- and, at times, fairly entertaining...

Cheers,
JtL

Thanks Jimmy for the cool head.

Oddly I do have two hats that seem to have identical felt in every way--from Cervo. One is from the 1940-ish Bulgarian stash and one is from the current product now with the Barbisio label. Close your eyes and you can't tell them apart. As far as workmanship on the trimming and sweatband the older hat is far better. I did have the older hat cleaned and it shapes better than it did in its very dusty NOS state. This felt I would suspect to be Beaver-free. 60-70 years of age separate these two and they are relatively standard good quality not a de Luxe high end product. Another Cervo Bantam I have is a totally different felt in weight and consistency. This is one of the few examples of a product made in the same facility for comparison purposes(perhaps only).

 

[dawgvet]

Thanks for your responses. I suspect that many factors play a role. My main interest was in the finishing and the type of fur used. On to my second question, does anyone know the specific differences, particularly of type and amount of furs, especially amount of beaver, used in lines of vintage lids such as Steston's Royal vs Royal DeLuxe vs Sovereign etc?
Thanks,
Jedidiah

 

[gtdean48]

... does anyone know the specific differences, particularly of type and amount of furs, especially amount of beaver, used in lines of vintage lids such as Steston's Royal vs Royal DeLuxe vs Sovereign etc?

That seems to be a closely guarded trade secret of Stetson. I have a Pinnacle which is 100% Beaver & a Sovereign Roadmaster that I would wager has little if any beaver in it.

As far as vintage, I would wager Beaver didn't appear in any felt below 3X with 100% being reserved for 25's, 7X CB, & 100's.

 

[danofarlington]

Would you view this as a subtle difference or a marked one? The reason I ask is that people praise the Akubra hats as having quality similar to the old hats. Since I doubt there are beavers running wild in Australia, they must aquire fur from some place. Probably where everybody else does. What would make people prefer one of these hats to a Stetson or a Dobbs?

Australia was overrun with rabbits since they were introduced by settlers in the 1800s, as I understand it.

 

[danofarlington]

That seems to be a closely guarded trade secret of Stetson. I have a Pinnacle which is 100% Beaver & a Sovereign Roadmaster that I would wager has little if any beaver in it.

As far as vintage, I would wager Beaver didn't appear in any felt below 3X with 100% being reserved for 25's, 7X CB, & 100's.

For my future reference, is a Stetson 25 then pure beaver, or you guys think that? Whenever a 7 1/8 in one of those models rolls around, at a time (if and) when I have the disposable income to blow on it, I want to be ready. One thing that makes me suspicious is the Stetson price list that some post here from time to time, in which a Stetson 25 went for $25, and a Stetson 100 went for $100 retail. Something must account for that difference, although I guess both could have been pure beaver. Maybe beaver by itself isn't the whole story.

 

[gtdean48]

I have a vintage 25 & 100. The felt bodies are almost identical except the finish of the 100 is highly superior to the 25. The 100's are finished out by a "Master Hatter" by hand. Much higher grade sweat & liner. No telling how much more pouncing occurred. The "manpower" value drives the price difference in the 25, 50(7XCB) & 100 along with the higher grade trimmings, IMHO.