Gangster/ G-man firearms

[Badluck Brody]

In addition to various timelines that I already run with and since I'm in the Milwaukee and Chicago area, I've been talking with folks about doing some reenacting and also shooting in more of a gangbuster (20's to even 50's) era.

So aside from tommyguns and pump shotguns, what kind of carbines, rifles or long arms would be used??

Brody

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

That's a big timespan. A lot of stuff which was really common in the 50's wasn't even available in the 20's.

 

[The Wolf]

It seems to me the Colt .45 model M 1911 handgun was also very popular on both sides of the law in the 1920s-1940s


The Wolf

 

[jamespowers]

How about the 1917 revolver that fired the 45 ACP as well? The gun was very versatile in the sense that you could use the same ammunition for the semi-auto, full auto Thompson and the revolver. One cartridge--three guns.
As for rifles, I think the Winchester 1886 model might be used by mobsters. It was lever action and could be fired fairly rapidly considering the first models did not have a sear. Pull the trigger and keep pumping the lever like in The Rifleman. A model 1897 shotgun was also good for the same kind of action. I assume any rifle that fired fast and could be sawed down enough to fit under an overcoat might be considered worthy of mobster notice. I will contact one of my friends that knows more about this than I and see what he can come up with too.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

In general, I would be very surprised if guns like the Thompson were at all common. Even though legal in many areas, the Thompson was very expensive especially during the depression. I would think that it was more of a weapon used by wealthy organized crime groups for special jobs rather than as a sort of "everyday" weapon.

For the 1920's I would bet that the most common weapons which your gangster or criminal would carry would be small-frame Smith & Wesson, Colt, Iver Johnson, H&R and the like revolvers in smaller calibers. There was a whole lot of variety in the types of small pistols which were available at the time, such as small automatic pocket pistols. The Colt model 1911 ex-military models would probably be pretty common too.

 

[BellyTank]

I would have imagined that in 'Organised Crime', the use of stolen and illegal weapons would be fairly common...
B
T

 

[jamespowers]

I would have imagined that in 'Organised Crime', the use of stolen and illegal weapons would be fairly common...

There was no such thing as an illegal weapon at the time---at least int he 1920s. That came later. Anyone could buy whatever they wanted. Thus there was little worry about stolen or illegal weapons. There also was no such thing as CSI or reliable ballistics tests. It wasn't worth the effort to steal a gun.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Badluck Brody]

Thanks fellas!

Most of us have already gone with the 1911's, but since the tommys are so expensive, I'm just looking to be as flexible with the different timelines and still have a house to live in.

Also as far as the Tommy goes, I've even heard that they were being sold door to door in certain citys and I've even seen an ad with a fella doneup cowboy fighting off rustlers with a tommygun... Pretty wild!

We've been planning to go with colt Police positives or S&W model 10's (Cheap, easily aquired and a timeless design) Plus blanks should work flawlessly. 1911's however are a different story....

I'm sure that the little Iver Johnson pocket pistols would also be common since they were still floating around since before the turn of the century. An they run for about $99 in good working order.

I'm also wondering about the time frame for Lugers P38's and 9mm Browning HP's?? 9mm blanks also work much better than 45ACP

I also just saw a history channel special on the St. Valentines Day Massacare. (Two tommys, cop revolvers, and a pair of sawed off scatterguns)

I'm sure they (LEO's) still used the lever action carbines and 97 pumpsguns.

Any other suggestions??

Auto shotguns were used by Bonnie and Clyde, wern't they??

Next we're going to look into cars etc. But which years were the most active for gangs, bank robbers etc??

Brody

 

[BellyTank]

It wasn't worth the effort to steal a gun.
J

Stolen guns as in "free" didn't cost a bean- that's what I'm saying.
Organised Crime = organized criminals.
B
T

 

[Badluck Brody]

... and also very disposable!!

I also suppose that military surplus would be easily aquired...

They say that one of the big heists that Dillinger pulled was a cop arsenel!!

Brody

 

[BellyTank]

Hey Badluck, did you appreciate your mention in the Gumshoe story thread?
Have you seen the famous letter from Clyde Barrow?

"Dear Sir:
While I still have breath in my lungs I will tell you what a dandy car you make. I have drove exclusively when I could get away with one. For sustained speed and freedom from trouble the Ford has got ever other car skinned and even if my business hasen't been strictly legal it don't hurt anything to tell you what a fine car you got in the Ford V-8.

Yours truly,
Clyde Champion Barrow"

Funny, I thought his middle name was Chestnut...
B
T

 

[Badluck Brody]

Cool letter!

I'll give the gumshoe thread a look...

Brody

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

There was no such thing as an illegal weapon at the time---at least int he 1920s. That came later. Anyone could buy whatever they wanted. Thus there was little worry about stolen or illegal weapons. There also was no such thing as CSI or reliable ballistics tests. It wasn't worth the effort to steal a gun.

Regards to all,

J

This is not really true. Even in the 1920's, there were gun laws. For instance, many states had laws against carrying a concealed firearm. Some cities had their own laws, too. In 1911 the Sullivan Law in New York City established a permit system for handguns. If you were caught with a handgun without the permit, you were in big trouble.

The main difference between gun laws then and today was that enforcement of the laws was geared mainly towards ethnic minorities. In New York City, gun laws were aimed mainly at the Irish. In the South, the laws were aimed mainly at the blacks.

And of course in 1934 you have the National Firearms Act which requires expensive permits for all sorts of things. I believe quite a few states banned machineguns before the NFA, but I would have to check to see which ones.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Didn't Bonny and Clyde have a BAR to?

 

[jamespowers]

Stolen guns as in "free" didn't cost a bean- that's what I'm saying.
Organised Crime = organized criminals.

That is true but if you wanted to get something specific then you would be better off buying it rather than stealing it. Heisting an arsenal from the police maybe an exception because they would certainly be willing to take what was being used against them. Stealing from an unknown source could net you somehting decent or a paperweight. You take your chances.
My firearms expert friend responded to my question as well. It is as follows:

"Actually, I would assume that they used whatever they could get their hands on. I don’t think that there’s ever been a gangsters’ “gun of choice�, other than small handguns. In those days it would have been .38 caliber revolvers, since semi-auto pistols, other than the Colt 1903 and 1911 models, weren’t that available.
As to long guns, I would assume that they used whatever was available, mostly lever action and bolt action rifles."

Regards to all,

J

 

[Flitcraft]

Re: Gangster Guns...

Actually, Dr. Thompson's gun was available by mail order until 1934, and even then it wasn't too difficult to purchase one.
The browning Hi-Power was designed by firearms savant john Browning and was first manufactured in 1935, mostly for the European military market.
The Walther P-38 was developed in 1938, hence its moniker. Production delays kept it out of wide circulation until about 1940, and then the Wermacht had first dibs.
The venerable Luger was fairly common. The U.S. Army even considered adopting it until WWI put an end to a reliable supply. Some sources credit Sgt. Alvin York with using a captured Luger and British spy Sydney Reilly was said to favor one, and I've even seen a picture of a cowboy in Texas carying a brace of them.
A very common sidearm for the cognoscenti was the Colt 1911, chambered for .38 Super. This configuration was the weapon of choice for Huey Long's bodyguards. Unfortuneately they put several through their employer while trying to defend him from a man in a linen suit.
Frank Hamer, the man credited with capturing Bonnie and Clyde, carried a Colt 1911 in .38 Super.
For your purposes, I would stick with the revolvers and maybe Winchesters and their clones. You might want to look into getting "5 in one" blanks- they use them in Hollywood productions- they will fit pretty much any .38/9mm calibre weapon. You can also find Winchester clones in pistol calibres- Cowboy action shooters use these and its much easier to find blanks.

 

[Flitcraft]

Re: Gangster Guns...

The .45 ACP revolvers that use half-moon clips were the Model 1917 Smith & Wesson and the Colt New Service. Both are pretty difficult to find and are generally in pretty bad shape. Smith & Wesson has over the years made limited production runs in .45 ACP, mostly in stainless steel. I've had two and was not very impressed. They had a lot of fit problems between the cylinder face and the forcing cone and I think blanks would just make this worse. Also, they had a nasty habit of binding up if the half-moon clips got dinged up any. If you do go this route, get full-moon clips instead- much sturdier and more practical.
Smith currently makes a blued .44 special revolver that is an excellent shooter, but difficult to find blanks for.
They also make a very authentic .45 Long Colt revolver from the custom shop, but expect to pay $1,200.00 or more.
If you can find it, a Smith model #64 or #65 would be perfect. This is a Smith N frame pistol chambered for the .38. Very authentic and very easy to find blanks to fit it. You sometimes see them at gun shows and they generally are reasonably priced and sturdy as can be.
The Colt 1911 is easy to find, but firing blanks is a nightmare. The slide is just so heavy that you either have to lighten the springs or get some really powerful blanks.
Colt has occasionally offered the 1911 in 9mm, but I can't remember the last time I saw one.
Interesting idea to expand the action shooting to G-men/Gangsters....
Curious to see where it goes......

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

Why would you want an N frame Smith in .38? Why not just go with a K frame?

 

[Badluck Brody]

If nothing else....

In CAS there are occasionally side stages called wild bunch shoots where autos and double actions are used. I'm told that some have used broom-handled mousers, P-38 's, lugers and ofcoarse 1911's.

I have heard abut blanks in the 1911's. I'm even told that if you watch Raiders, you notice that he's using a Browning in the gunfight at the Ravenwood bar. Apparently it was because of the reliability of 9mm vs. 45 acp blanks...

We already make 38spc blanks for wild west reenactments and performances, you just have to remember to widen the flash hole and use the right type of florest-foam.

I'll do a search on the S&W model 64/65. I also know a used 9mm Llama that might be good.

What's the difference between the two frames??

Brody

 

[Flitcraft]

Smith & Wesson frames are informally designated with letters of the alphabet-
J,K,L, and N frames- J frames are the .32's and .38's- like the snubnose models you see in old movies, K frames are heavier, for the .38 Special cartridge, L frames for the .357's and N frames for the .44's, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP and .45 Colt.

The Smith & Wesson Model #64 was called 'The Outdoorsman' and was developed to handle heavy duty (+P range) .38 Special cartridges after Lawmen complained that their standard issue .38's weren't powerful enough to penetrate the sheetmetal of the getaway cars of Bonnie & Clyde, John Dillinger, etc.

Smith & Wesson developed the .357 cartridge in 1935, but it was a custom order item and pretty expensive, especially considereing Depression Era wages.