How does one block a hat and who has a 7 5/8 fedora block ?

[JerseyJones]

Hello all,

My Dear Bride bought me two new Akubras for my birthday a Gray Federation and a Brown Federation Deluxe.

And a quick cheer for Mrs. JerseyJones please ...:clap :clap

Now I gave my original Federation a Raiders bash and I like it, but I'd like to style these two similarly, but more precisely.

Thus (Fedora are you listening ?):

Does anyone have a size 61 Raiders block and/or

Would any one here be willing to help me block these hats. The brown Deluxe especially, which I'd like to be straight up Indy.

All other ideas welcomed as well as styling suggestions for the Gray one.

Thanks
Ken / JJ

 

[Nathan Flowers]

Does it just need styling help, or does it really need a reblock? If you just need styling help, I'd recommend talking to Fedora. If you're in need of a reblock and cleaning, I'd recommend sending it to Optimo.

 

[Fedora]

I only own a 7 1/4 block, customized, and a number 52, 7 3/8 block. Or a 58 and 59 respectively. regards, Fedora

 

[Andykev]

Ture hat block size

Originally posted by Fedora
I only own a 7 1/4 block, customized, and a number 52, 7 3/8 block. Or a 58 and 59 respectively. regards, Fedora

You are aware that the 7 1/4 block is for a 7 1/8, and the 7 3/8 is for the 7 1/4 size. You add (or subtract) one size for the finished hat size. Hey Art....clarify, please!

And ..it isn't the BASH...it's the BLOCK of the hat!

 

[Fedora]

You are way off base Andy. A 7 1/4 hat block is for a 7 1/4 hat size. The block is larger than the finished hat because the 7 1/4 sweatband has to fit inside the blocked hat. Likewise, the brim flange will also be stamped with 7 1/4. I never corrected you when you brought this up on a previous post. The numbers stamped on the block and flange do not indicate the the actual circumference of the block. They reflect actual head size plus whatever is added for the sweatband. It would be too confusing to use a differently stamped block for given size. Where did you come up with that idea ? Just curious. I just finished a block and sent it to a hatter to use on someone's hat. In my conversations with him, we had no trouble communicating because we were speaking the same language. A 7 1/4 block size, is used to block a 7 1/4 hat. Now, if you were going to reblock a hat, leaving the sweatband in, you would use a 7 1/8 block to reblock a 7 1/4. Why? Because the 7 1/4 block would stretch out the sweatband beyond the 7 1/4 head size. Personally, I don't like leaving the sweatband in. regards, Fedora

 

[Andykev]

I beg to differ

And are you talking straw or felt?. I have a 7 1/2 inch block and it is used for a 7 3/8 hat....ART HELP!

 

[Art Fawcett]

Sorry Fedora, but you are wrong. The block when talking about felts is always one size larger. That way it accomodates the leather, making it one size smaller. A 7 1/4 block, again, when talking felts, makes a 7 1/8 hat. If you are talking about reblocking a 7 1/4 hat with the leather in , then yes, that is the right block. But when making the hat originally, you need a 7 3/8 block to make a 7 1/4 hat. This is not necessarily true when dealing with Panama's. A Panama actually looks better if you use the same size block as the hats size , then let the leather stretch the hat. It is re-tightened when you use the Pugaree or ribbon.
I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but there you go.
I should mention that I went over this much with Graham ( Optiimo) and he will confirm my statement.

 

[Andykev]

That is

Everything that I have read in my journals and vintage hat making books. The size depends on felt vs. straw. My hat block for shaping the brim on my 7 3/8 hat REQUIRES a 7 1/2 inch brim block. YOU CANNOT FIT THE SAME SIZE INTO THE "correct" numbered BLOCK> CANT DO IT. I made the mistake and FU**** up the hat and had to reblock it and thankfully was able to rectivy my stupidity.

 

[havershaw]

hmmmm...

I just managed to get a 6-3/4 hat onto my size 7 block. (It wasn't easy.) It was definitely a 6-3/4 hat - it had a tag on the liner, it had the Stetson Philadelphia reorder tag under the sweatband, and when I took the sweatband and liner out, both had "6-3/4" written on them in what i assume is grease pencil.

now, how come that works?

don't get me wrong - this is my first attempt at a reblock. I make no claims on having any knowledge. But my question is (and this is asked with the utmost respect for all involved), Fedora has clearly been reblocking hats using his method of sizing for quite a while now. We've all seen how great his work is, and I'm sure he has blocked more than a few hats that were the same size as the block. So...what does this mean?

(I'm not trying to throw Naptha on the fire here...I promise! I'm just genuinely baffled here. "Mad" hatters, indeed.)

 

[Art Fawcett]

Havershaw, there might be a reasonable explanation. First, you hat may say that it is a 6 3/4, but could have been stretched, no longer fitting the marked size. In the dispute here, we may be talking old block methods vs new methods. I don't own any new blocks so it could be that the newer blocks take leather into consideration while older did not. This is purely a guess on my part, like I said, I don't own any new blocks. Also, I believe you now order blocks by circumference, not hat size. Is this correct Fedora? Not having had any made, I rely on Fedora in that dept.
I should also mention that I have not met two hatters that did the same job alike. (OK, maybe the sandbag). One thing I have found in this field is that whatever gets the job done and looks good is the right way to do it. I have seen more "backyard" equipment that does a great job, you just have to shake your head. WOW..wish I would have thought of that kind of thing.

 

[Fedora]

Now I am confused. Let me give some measurements of a specific block. I have an untouched 7 3/8 block. I have a 7 3/8 flange. I have blocked hats for people who wear a 7 3/8 on this block. They fit. The circumference of the 7 3/8 block is 23 5/16. Most hat charts list the circumference of a 7 3/8 head as 23 inches. The block is larger than the head size, in this case 23 inches. The 5 /16 is what is needed to let the sweatband fit. I wear a 7 1/4. A hat blocked on this 7 3/8 block is a 7 3/8 hat. It falls to my ears. So, if I have all of this wrong, I have two hat blocks that are anomalies. It is possible I guess. Oh, and the block that I made to block a 7 1/4 hat size is 22 7/8 in circumference. The hat that came from the block fits me. Every hat that I have ever wore is a 7 1/4. So gentlemen, what gives? And, no feathers ruffled here. I am interested in this stuff. I certainly don't claim to be a hatter. My only claim to fame is that I have reblocked around 40 something hats, and made my own Raiders block, along with another one. I had to determine the circumference of the block in order to supply it for a 7 1/4 hat. Being a cabinet maker, I relied upon the tape measure. It looks as if what we have here is the mercury was present when industry standards and measurements were established.LOL And, as a side note, when I first talked to Graham at Optimo in regards to open crown height, he had no clue as to what I was talking about. Joe Peters completely understood the crown height issue, and so did Gary White, and Bobby Miller, and Walt, and Dave Brown....but not Graham. Does his blocks not have the size and crown height on the bottom like everyone that I have ever seen? Now, back the the size issue. My 7 3/8 flange fits over my 7 3/8 block, with enough room between the block and the flange for a very very thick hat to fit. For my purposes, the 7 3/8 works well. Of course, I mainly use the flange as a tool for stretching the felt, and then as a shaper for the brim, using nothing but a steam iron. So, I am curious as why my experience, limited as it is, is different than yours. My blocks block the size hat listed on the bottom of the block. That yours does not really has me scratching my head, and even pinching myself as to wake up from an illogical dream. regards, Fedora

 

[havershaw]

Art, I'm pretty confident of the size because I can wear even 6-7/8 without too much discomfort (size 7 is my normal hat), though it's tight...but I could barely get this hat on my head!

here's what the hat currently looks like, sitting on its block:

http://public.fotki.com/havershaw/hat_details/hat_block_3.html

It doesn't look too abnormal to me. (If you go to the next two photos, there are a couple more angles of the hat on the block.)

But I guess anomalies are possible, no? The circumfrence on this size 7 hat block is 22 1/4". what do you guys think - does that sound right?

 

[Fedora]

Oh, and guys, I love this stuff. Working on hats is a real big hobby with me. I am still in the learning curve and basically only draw from my own limited experience. I love discussing this stuff, and especially love to hear Art and others discuss the technical details. There has to be an answer to our different experiences, and for the sake of my own sanity, I hope some light can be shed on all of this. regards, Fedora

 

[Fedora]

Havershaw, glad to see you using that block I sent ya. Be sure and let us see the final product. On my hat charts, the circumference of a head that wears a 7 runs from 21 7/8 to 22, depending upon whose chart you use. If you add 1/4 an inch(which I did) to the normal head circumference, the 22 1/4 is in the ball park. But, the proof is in the pudding, like when you try it on. Of course, your sweatband must be the right size too. regards, Fedora

 

[Art Fawcett]

Havershaw, now that i see the pics, I understand. First, you have no leather in this hat, that means that if still in original size ( no shrinking) it should fit on a 6 7/8 block. Please note in your pick that there appears to be approx 1" before you hit the bottom of the block. ( I'm guessing from the pics) which means you are not truly getting it over a 7, but a 6 7/8 + something. Geeze, did that make sense? If you could bring the hat completely to the bottom of the block, you could say that it was fitted to a size 7 block, equating to a 6 7/8 AFTER you put the leather in. You can put a larger leather is but it will stretch the felt.
Fedora, I think I'm gonna have to get the tape out as you really have me thinking about this one. My formula has come from books from the past and through practical experience so I have little explanation other than that. Since this is where you are coming from also there must be an explanation that is escaping us. Graham was confused about crown height? Don't know what to say about that one so I won't. I don't have any blocks available tonight, but tomorrow I'll start taping them to see if we can come up with something logical here. In the mean time I'll go through some of my old "Hat Life" books to see what I can uncover in writing from someone other than myself.

 

[fedoralover]

Art, in regards to Graham being confused about crown heights, I would say it was more that we weren't talking the same language. This started when I ordered a fedora in london gray and said I wanted the crown height to be 5 1/2 inches. When it came it was 5 3/4 inches. When I told Graham the hat wasn't what I ordered, we found out that Graham's blocks will give you an extra 1/4 inch in height. Meaning, if you order a fedora with a 5 3/4 inch crown and he puts it on a 5 3/4 inch block, it will measure 6. It's just the way it works on his blocks. Maybe it works that way on all of them. But of course I didn't know this when I ordered. I just took it for granted that when I said I wanted the open crown height to be 5 1/2, that's what it would be. But Graham not knowing that I didn't know, put the body on a 5 1/2 block, giving the crown a 5 3/4 inch height in an open crown state. Like fedora said, with other hatters like Joe Peters and Gary White, they knew that when someone said they wanted a crown to be a certain height, they used whatever block was necessary to acheive that height, without the buyer having to make that adjustment in their order. It could be that Graham wasn't used to us here at COW and the Fedoralounge being that picky. Probably not many of his other customers outside of this forum, get out a level and a tape measure and make sure the hat is exactly as ordered right down to a gnats eyebrow. At any rate after we were all on the same page and talking the same language people now know how to order and Graham knows what we want when we order a specific crown height.

fedoralover

 

[Fedora]

Yeah, I really never understood what Graham was saying in relation to crown heights. If I block a hat on my 5 3/4 block, the hat comes off the block, 5 3/4 tall plus the thickness of the felt. Since most felt will never be over 1/8 an inch thick, that would account for a little extra height, but I have yet to see a hat felt that is 1/4 an inch thick. My first Optimo was supposed to be 5 1/2 open crown, I got a 5 1/4 open crown. Mr Keppler now has that hat as he said he liked the shorter crown heights. Regarding Havershaws block, it may be a little shy of the 22 1/4 circumference since he could not get the hat over the complete block, but since this block does not have much taper, he may be allright. I don't recall how far up the block traveled before a little taper came into play. I think that block is 5 3/4 tall Havershaw. That may be a bit tall for your hat size. You could probably have someone cut 1/4 an inch off the bottom to size in down in height, or I can do it for you. I do know that removing 1/4 from the bottom will not affect the hat size as I was about to do that before Havershaw wanted it. regards, Fedora

 

[havershaw]

Does it matter that the hat doesn't go all the way to the bottom of the block? I definitely could have gotten it lower, but I would have started to lose brim for sure. The hat was fairly short-crowned to begin with. You can see it on my hats page. (i would link to it but apparently fotki is down right now and I can't find the link.)

I guess it would be less difficult to make the brim break if the crown simply went to the end of the block - but I can get along all right without that. Hopefully I'll pick up a brim flange some time soon, as I have a hard time getting the 'waves' out of the brim.

I'll hopefully have the before-and-after photos tomorrow night (depends how fast we can can get it all sewn together). But anyway, it's OK to me that it doesn't go all the way to the bottom of the crown - I like tall-crowned hats, but having a small head, it can't be that tall.

 

[Andykev]

Hey Fedora!

You know Art and I live up here in the Bay Area, just a couple of city's away from eachother. We usually meet every couple of weeks for lunch. Today we both had a good meal, we are having CROW.

You appear to be right, and my hat is off to you. I have used the blocks size difference on the flange block, and it definately worked using the Up size for the lower true size of the hat.

I have NOT used the crown blocks, as it requires removing the inner liner...and I don't have the skill to sew it in properly.

I am going to investigate (code: call Kevin at Optimo) on Monday.

I am learning, and you know what they say about a little bit of knowledge is very dangerous.

LOL

 

[Fedora]

Hey guys. I have eaten my share of hats, so we share more than just our passion towards hats. I am a neophyte as well, but learning as I go along. I hope to learn much from Andy and Art as time goes by. Especially about vintage hats. It is so nice to correspond with folks who share my passions, not just you two guys, but many others too. This is a great place to be. regards, Fedora