Modern Production Hats

[David Bresch]

I ask the Lounge, are there specific contemporary production models that you would hold comparable to Optimo and Art Fawcett's hats? Many brands have several qualities (vis Borsalino), so I ask for specificity. A related question is, can rabbit fur felt ever be as good as beaver fur felt (since so many production hats use rabbit fur felt)? Art's post about Beaver's sending him a hat body provoked this post.

By the way, RE my first two fedoras, my Optimo is nice but I feel as if its brim is out of character for a Milan straw, essentially an American hat. I wear it with pleasure but I would have preferred a more narrow brim.

I am looking forward to wearing Art's heavy felt fedora he made for me this fall and winter. I was initially shocked by its proportions, but the more I admire it and examine it I realize it really is very nice.

Regarding "hat head," whoever commented that a short haircut solves this problem, was correct. I usually sport a pretty short haircut, but I had delayed a few weeks and therein was the problem.

Meanwhile, I solicited both Art Fawcett's and Gus Miller's offers to copy a hat I admired in one of the ads Matt Deckard published in this forum. Art is extremely easy and quick to deal with. Gus is a nice guy, but easy to deal with he ain't, at least by phone. I am still waiting for samples he promised me and I am quite sure this is months now.....(or at least I feel like it is...). Very likely I will be giving Art my second order soon....

Oh yeah, one more thing. This is a very good natured forum and despite Art's protests, hatters seem a benign lot: so how is it that after every post I make I get a blizzard of missives from he-who-cannot-be-named declaring Fedora Lounge forum-ites the Antichrist?

 

[analogist]

A Resounding "NO"

David;

I have only seen two Optimo hats (neither was 100% beaver) but scads of Art Fawcett hats and IMHO, there is no production hat extant that compares.
Although many a Borsalino, Guerra, Cervo, Stetson, Beaver Brand, ad nauseam are nice, a custom hat they ain't.

You can add Steve Delk, Marc Kitter, and Gus Miller to the mix and the answer to your question is still a resounding "no".

analogist

 

[barrowjh]

I occasionally speak up for BB, but I am not holding them to an Optimo or Art Fawcett (or Jim Whittington, etc) standard. BB and Hatco are factories with price structures based on 'economies of scale' - BB accomodates some customization but it is limited to options that are within their present production line, and you have to allow about 5 weeks for them to 'work in' the custom order between bulk orders. The masses are not 'demanding' 100% beaver, and if the difference between 100% beaver and a beaver/hare blend will only be appreciated by a few souls on FL, I suspect the smaller shops will always have this 'niche' to themselves.

 

[Bud-n-Texas]

Production - v - Custom

The two can not now, or could they every be a fair comparison. We are talking apples and oranges here. Whether it be hats, cars or restaurants there never has been a true comparison, they are what they are period. A vintage (Stetson, Borso etc...) could not compare to a vintage custom anymore than a current production (of any manufacturer ) can be compared to a modern custom. With all the chatter about this company or that, or this hatter or that, the only true determining factor is DO YOU LIKE THE HAT ON YOUR HEAD. There are current companies and custom hatters I would not even consider, but you may think the same ones I detest are wonderful or vice versa. I question why anyone would deal with such arrogance or ignorance of some hat makers and yet some of us choose to do so.

 

[David Bresch]

I am not sure whose arrogance you refer to, no one here has ever been arrogant with me.

 

[besdor]

The bottom line is a custom mad hat using beaver fur will alwaysbe better than a production made rabbit felt hat. You cant compare the two. As Borsalino's largest dealer in the world, I can say that they do make the best Production hat but they cant compete with someone making a hat one at a time. As someone who has seen plenty of cutsom made hats as well , they are a step above the rest . In the custom field there are differences as well. I had a customer bring in a custom made hat by a well know hatter and I couln't bring myself to tell him the truth -that it was made terribly . The flanging was bad and the body of the hat was broken.



Steven

 

[Bud-n-Texas]

Steven, you are spot on.

 

[thefedorastore]

The two can not now, or could they every be a fair comparison. We are talking apples and oranges here. Whether it be hats, cars or restaurants there never has been a true comparison, they are what they are period. A vintage (Stetson, Borso etc...) could not compare to a vintage custom anymore than a current production (of any manufacturer ) can be compared to a modern custom. With all the chatter about this company or that, or this hatter or that, the only true determining factor is DO YOU LIKE THE HAT ON YOUR HEAD. There are current companies and custom hatters I would not even consider, but you may think the same ones I detest are wonderful or vice versa. I question why anyone would deal with such arrogance or ignorance of some hat makers and yet some of us choose to do so.

I must agree with you. Some folks are buying a hat, while others wish to purchase some personality from the seller. When I buy things, I try not to concern myself with the 'people' factor, then I assure I get what I want instead of what they want to sell me. I have found straight and to-the-point to help eliminate this. Others prefer to purchase a relationship with their hat. On the extreme, some want their butts kissed when they spend $40. I guess there are brands and retailers for every customer, and that's a good thing. The diversity of the whole lot in the hatting industry is very interesting.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Oh yeah, one more thing. This is a very good natured forum and despite Art's protests, hatters seem a benign lot: so how is it that after every post I make I get a blizzard of missives from he-who-cannot-be-named declaring Fedora Lounge forum-ites the Antichrist?

I believe this is the arrogance Bud is referring to David.

 

[David Bresch]

Art you bad boy!

Putting aside the quality of hats from artisans like Art Graham, I find frustrating/amusing that my choices amongst production hats is so narrow: for example, for my first hat I wanted a navy one. Very few available. For my second felt I wanted green. Also very few models. Art will whip this up in no time, but to an uneducated person such as myself, that so few colors are available RTW is very odd.

 

[J.T.Marcus]

If you want COLORS, they are available, some I never knew existed. But, here's the rub, they are all WOOL! A quick search will yield a veritable rainbow. But that causes me to wonder, does wool take dye better than fur?

 

[Art Fawcett]

JT, there are companies that cater to certain markets. One is the Hasidic ( black hat) market, another is whats termed the "ethnic" market meaning brighter colors than the conservative middle class would not be associated with. This ethnic market is also considered bargain conscious thus most of the colorful hats are of the less expensive variety but make a big splash. Wool hats can be made at the price point that this market is ( very generalized) willing to spend. Please understand I am speaking in very general terms and do not mean to be offensive to those of us that like brighter hats, but that's the current industry.

 

[David Bresch]

The point is, I do not have to be either creative or daring to rule out production hats, and I "lucked" onto two conservative colors not generally available except through custom/artisanal hats.

I was kind of hoping there would be some kind of back and forth: isn't there anyone who will stand up for production hats, even selected models?

 

[barrowjh]

I agree with you about the lack of colors, and I suspect you would have to go with Borsalino to satisfy that need. Borsalino has colors and style points that the other factories do not attempt to touch.

• Borsalino actually has a taupe color (or did)
• Hat styles (crown shapes) always a tiny bit different from the classic standards
• Reasonably good quality fur (someone correct me if I'm wrong?)

The down side is (and I am repeating others' comments here) is spotty quality control on finish, and retail prices equivalent to artisans' prices.
I went crazy on ebay and now have two different shades of green in to Optimo for refurbishing (120140109038 & 140143768134). Talk to Besdor about color; maybe he will personally inspect any Borsalino you order and ensure that you do not get a 'lemon' from a quality of construction perspective, and I think his prices are better than suggested retail.

 

[David Bresch]

Not me, I am getting my next hat from Art and perhaps Gus. I just wondered if somewhere there was a production hat I could envision ordering on a whim.

 

[J.T.Marcus]

Art, thank-you for your most helpful answer. Your observations were both on target and sensitive.

David, As to your Question, "Isn't there anyone here who will stand up for a production hat?" May I suggest a Stetson Temple (2 5/8"" brim). Granted, I've only had mine about six months, and I haven't been caught in a goose drowning downpour. On the other hand, I haven't regreted buying it, either. It looks good and it makes me feel good, and that's what counts.

 

[thefedorastore]

Not me, I am getting my next hat from Art and perhaps Gus. I just wondered if somewhere there was a production hat I could envision ordering on a whim.

Our production Beaver Brand 1344 (search term) is available in a wide array of colors, and the brim and crown can be customized how you like in general terms.

 

[Fast]

production vs custom

Maybe it's one of those things where if you don't really know the difference, it isn't worth the price, but if you really do, the price isn't the problem. The problem is just getting it.

Fortunately I have yet to develop my millinery expertice to the point where tossing on anything less than a $500 hat depresses me (but there is this really cool italian fur felt hand made shapeau by some hat yoda guy in the piedmont. . . and for only $750. . .mmmmmmmm).

Carpe Diem
Fast

 

[happyfilmluvguy]

I don't own a custom hat, but I have two wool hats, one Scala, one Bailey, and they are perfect for everyday use, getting beat up and what not, and when I am going out to something a little more fancy, I wear one of my two fur felts. I suppose you could use this as an example. Wear the custom hat for a special occasion and wear the production hat when it doesn't really matter.

 

[Nathan Flowers]

By the way, RE my first two fedoras, my Optimo is nice but I feel as if its brim is out of character for a Milan straw, essentially an American hat. I wear it with pleasure but I would have preferred a more narrow brim.

I'm fairly certain that Graham can make that brim smaller for you. Those Milan straw hats basically peel off layer by layer.