Plus fours (Plus twos/eights)

[benstephens]

Pease can people help me. I am researching plus fours at the moment. I can not find any reference to Plus twos or plus eights in any contextual evidence being terms in common usage in the 1920s and 1930s. The Army and Navy Stores catalogue in 1935 calls them Plus fours, although it makes reference to conservative styles, plus twos?, but no use of that term.

The 1940s menswear magazines mention the fact that very few pairs of plus fours have been sold, maybe, it surmises is because of the fact they have become an Item of ridicule because of the fashion for students to wear them very long, Plus eights?, however, no mention of that particular term.

I do not want circumstantial evidence, i.e., my granddad used to call them that, I particularly need written evidence that these terms were in common language to describe these items, or even more importantly a proper tailors term. I have been told that possibly they are called this in a P G Wodehouse book, but can not find this reference.

Hopefully someone will be able to help.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[DerMann]

I remember from the TV series of Jeeves and Wooster, Bertie uses plus fours in one of those ever so clever Wodehousian phrases, can't really recall it, though.

Wodehouse also wrote a short story about golf entiteld the Magic Plus Fours. Cannot find an online version of the story, however, there are online transcriptions of these sort of stories (i.e. past their copyright).

 

[ShoreRoadLady]

Wodehouse's writings can be found online at Project Gutenberg:
http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/w
(scroll down to find Wodehouse)

 

[BellyTank]

Mr. Ben-
good luck to you- I've tried before, on the internet, to no avail.

My '39/'40 Army Navy only mentions Plus Fours, as part of a Plus Four Suit.
It does mention a double-crowned felt hat for tropical wear, though...

Good luck.

B
T

 

[benstephens]

BT,

Yes, interestingly, the 35 Army and Navy stores mentions the conservative style as I mentioned before. I think by 1939 the sale of plus fours was diminishing.

I have found one reference to plus twos, this being in a 1979 golfing clothes advert but that is it.


fftopic: Just having received my earlier Army and Navy stores catalogue, it is interesting to see the changes in men's wear in the 4 years, I had them both open for comparison last night. There were no double breasted evening jackets in the 35/36 catalogue, and there was a greater range of smoking jackets etc in the earlier one.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[Sir RBH]

Pease can people help me. I am researching plus fours at the moment. I can not find any reference to Plus twos or plus eights in any contextual evidence being terms in common usage in the 1920s and 1930s. The Army and Navy Stores catalogue in 1935 calls them Plus fours, although it makes reference to conservative styles, plus twos?, but no use of that term.

The 1940s menswear magazines mention the fact that very few pairs of plus fours have been sold, maybe, it surmises is because of the fact they have become an Item of ridicule because of the fashion for students to wear them very long, Plus eights?, however, no mention of that particular term.

I do not want circumstantial evidence, i.e., my granddad used to call them that, I particularly need written evidence that these terms were in common language to describe these items, or even more importantly a proper tailors term. I have been told that possibly they are called this in a P G Wodehouse book, but can not find this reference.

Hopefully someone will be able to help.

Kindest Regards

Ben

Ben
Hope you are well. In regards to Plus twos and Plus Eights
I don't have any evidence here myself but I know for a fact that my own Grandfather who was the sort of person that never left the golf course wore Plus Sixes!! he had his golf attire cut very low and wide below the knee. Such was the amount of material used you could have made a sail for the yacht!!. Im sure my father has some images which i should be able to scan..
RBH

 

[benstephens]

It is possible I may have fathomed this now.The derivation seems to have appeared officially written by tailors latter, and possibly the terminology in quolicial language earlier.

I have found this passage in a 1937 tailoring pamphlet

Plus Fours

A certain style of leg wear, very popular in the writers youth, and then generally designated as "Knicker-bockers" has recently-due to its suitability for wear with golfing outfits-been renamed as "Plus Fours".......

.....but during the later seasons the excess length has been curtailed and the general effect restored to the more attractive appearence of the original knickerbockers......

I think Plus Four is actually a reference to a golf term rather than to any reference to an actual length. I feel that that the use of plus twos, sixes and eights is a more recent term, as people want to apply a set of rules to clothing, and not as such a derivative from the original terminology.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Hi Ben,

For Burton, "plus fours" and "knickerbokers"/"knickers" seems to have been freely interchangable, going by my mid-1930s catalogues. No mention of 2s, 6s or 8s. My Willerby catalogue mentions only plus fours.

But i think you're wrong in concluding that the term "Plus 4" was not descriptive. It didn't refer to length. It referred to how much extra fabric was present, and therefore how baggy the knickerbockers were. They all fastened at the same place (just south of the knee), so a pair with a longer inseam would hang more, would be baggier, would be blousier. Therefore a plus 4 would hang, bag, blouse, more than a plus 2, but less than a plus 6. (((Always accepting that i haven't seen these latter terms in period literature either)))

bk

 

[benstephens]

Bk,

Please can I have evidence, As I said at the beggining of this post I am not sure what is right or wrong. As you say, you have never seen the term plus 2s or plus 6s.

Interesting I have just found this in a pattern.

Standard style plus fours. On cutting the over hang, it gives a dimension of 10.5 inches, longer or shorter as desired. 10.5 does give about a 4 inch over hang. (This pattern is for someone with a leg length of 30)

Plus fours with Knee bands. These have a two inch fold below the knee. Ie, less baggy plus fours. But it does not refer to them as plus twos.

The nine point plus fours. (Just a more complicated pattern it seems)

So, it could be deduced, that the length is standard, and being four inches is where it gets it name from, although the pattern is ambigous, ie, you could have plus fours with any amount of over hang. However, the same writer is the one who claims that the name came about when they began to be used for golf.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[benstephens]

Although I have to say that I am unsure why they would be called plus fours if they had a golfing connection. I know very little about golf, but on simple searches I can not find any terms that would be a good connection.

I believe the term plus four in reality is a length term, as it seems the standard was 4 inches.

However, my original question was about the terms plus 2s, 6s and 8s. I think, in tailoring terms, the use of plus four was for any style of knickerbocker, not dependant of length below the knee.

Kindest Regards

Ben