The decline of good parenting...

[Steve]

I was reminded yet again of how far we've drifted from the rod when I was at dinner with my family tonight at the local Carabba's tonight. For those of you who have been, you know how good Carabba's food is, and for those of you who don't, it is some mighty good Italian.

But I digress. We were seated next to a large table with perhaps seven or eight persons around it. Unfortunately for me, I was closest to it. For the first half-hour of our seventy minute recline, I was treated to being about two feet from a small child that severely lacked guidance. Aside from squabbling with her senior sister, she seemed to have a fetish for standing next to her chair and moving spasmodically. Then she started moving around the table for some unnecessary reason and her head brushed against me. Then I snapped internally.

I go to a restaurant with my family. We pay good money to sit and be served by charismatic waiters and fine chefs in a relaxing atmosphere; and I do not appreciate it when parents are so inconsiderate of their fellow man that they neglect to teach their offspring proper manners for said situation. I would have gotten my proverbial hide tanned if I had done that. But this country is festering with people who are continually telling us how to raise children minus the woodshed.

I'll tell you what I was raised with. A wooden spoon, effectively wielded with deadly accuracy by my mother. An infraction? Three to five licks. I balk? Ten. And I can tell you that it grew me up quick. So quick that I am world-weary and cynical by the age of sixteen. While my friends ponder rock bands and driving I can be found curled up in bed at night with a book regarding history or economics.

Sorry for rambling, but I had to get all that out.

 

[whistlebait]

I also have fond memories of the wooden spoon. I think the wooden spoon must have gone out of fashion some time ago. Completely understand your wish to rant and of course you are entitled to do so.

 

[Colonel]

No wooden spoon for me. I recall very clearly the sound of my Dad removing the belt from his pants as it shot through the belt loops. My Mom would make me go out to the hedge and pick a good switch for her to use - and it had BETTER be a good one! I'm now 52 years old, and I just got back from having supper with my parents. Dad will be 92 in another month. I suspect that those whose parents didn't go through the heartache it takes to deliver some much-needed discipline will never share the closeness that our family has. We get together as a family quite regularly. There are now 16 of us covering 3 generations here in town, and we all get together probably 7 or 8 times a year. I'm glad my parents loved me enough to give me the discipline I needed.

The job of a parent is not to raise a child and be their buddy, but to grow and nuture a lady or a gentleman.

By the way, which Carabbas was it? I'm in Volusia County.

 

[Andykev]

I think she was a school teacher to boot!

Tonight I went to Best Buy...our local electronics , tv, software, appiance, computer.....

I bought myself a new notebook Logitec wireless mouse! Yea.
OK so EVERYONE in town was in there, it was WORSE than before Christmas. Sales, buying what you didn't get, or exchanges, whatever.

The rather large lady in the 10 minute waite 60 people in line for checkstand..had two cute kids. One, a boy about 5, the girl, about 3. The boy kept ramming me in the ankle with that low slung shopping cart found in these places. Mom did not clue in to the looks I gave her. Then the girl.....if you thought the actor screaming thru the whole War of the Worlds movie was bad, this kid had a set of lungs. Mom didn't blink an eye. She proudly says for all to hear, Mommy's little girl is a bit tired, isn't she? Never once tried to tell the kid to knock it off. Now, I know what it's like to have a 2, 3, or 13 year old. Still, you MAKE THE EFFORT, if only for appearances sake.

 

[varga49]

No wooden spoon for me. I recall very clearly the sound of my Dad removing the belt from his pants as it shot through the belt loops.

Colonel, I read that statement and had to smile! I can still hear that sound today at 56. That and the shrill whistle when it was past time to be home. Both those sounds ring clear as a bell even now!

Andy In my second career I worked professionally with gang kids and at risk kids in a locked facility! To this day I still redirect unruly or rude kids! When the parent is being selectively blind or indifferent after making eye contact I directly address the kid and say to him, in a voice loud enough for his parent to hear, Thank you for not(fill in the blank) anymore!

 

[shamus]

Oddly enough, I was never so fondly beaten. I think it strange that so many of you look back on being physically beaten with a piece of wood, or a strape of leather and think that's it was a good time? "Thank you sir, may I have another..."

In fact, I was only spanked with the hand once... or so I was told. Now in 5th grade I was paddled also, but not by my parent and I still don't go back to happy land when I think about it.

I've never beaten my son, sure I thought about it in the heat of anger, but I find other methods to remidey the situation, than physical abuse. Not to say I won't someday if he does something that qualifies for such punishment.

I don't think that hitting your kids is always the answer. Nor do I think that parents that hit their children should be called "Good Parents"

 

[varga49]

don't get me wrong...

Oddly enough, I was never so fondly beaten. I think it strange that so many of you look back on being physically beaten with a piece of wood, or a strape of leather and think that's it was a good time? "Thank you sir, may I have another..."

In fact, I was only spanked with the hand once... or so I was told. Now in 5th grade I was paddled also, but not by my parent and I still don't go back to happy land when I think about it.

I've never beaten my son, sure I thought about it in the heat of anger, but I find other methods to remidey the situation, than physical abuse. Not to say I won't someday if he does something that qualifies for such punishment.

I don't think that hitting your kids is always the answer. Nor do I think that parents that hit their children should be called "Good Parents"

Shamus,I don't want to leave the impression that I was routinely beaten and therefore condone child beating...More often than not it was the noise of that belt coming off that made it's lasting impression and snapped me back in to appropriate behavior...I didn't get the belt as much as you may have been led to believe....I was no fool! I didn't beat my kids and both of them are good moral well balanced adults...But I did swat them on the behind early on when they needed the structure...I didn't have to do that too often either and to hear my son and daughter tell it...they were no fools!

 

[DanielJones]

The only time that my Mother whooped me is when I deserved it. And it did hurt, but truthfully it did hurt my Mom more. She would wind up with a brused palm after I would mouth off and I'd get a slap. So, any of the paddlings that I got were well deserved and I have no mental trauma from it. If nothing else it made me a stronger indevidual. I just wish the ol' lady was still around so I could thank her and tell her how much I appreciate her turning me into an honorable man. Now, it wasn't the beating but mostly her teachings that made me what I am today, and I am greatful for every part of that life, and our family is very close indeed. It took my Mom three kids to figure out she wasn't cut out for motherhood, but we all agree that she did a mighty fine job.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[Naama]

I'll tell you what I was raised with. A wooden spoon, effectively wielded with deadly accuracy by my mother. An infraction? Three to five licks. I balk? Ten. And I can tell you that it grew me up quick. So quick that I am world-weary and cynical by the age of sixteen. While my friends ponder rock bands and driving I can be found curled up in bed at night with a book regarding history or economics.

Sorry for rambling, but I had to get all that out.

You can't be serious?!
My sisters and I where never ever beaten by my parent's and we didn't turned out to be some criminals or bad people in any way. But I think if they would have done that, I would have turned out wrong. Because I couldn't respect anyone who doesn't respect me, and abusing someone physically is very respectless and hummiliating.......
I always wondered how someone who was beaten up by his parent's can beat up his children, and I still wonder.

Naama

 

[Harry Lime]

Hmmm.

Maybe these children misbehaved and the parents didn't correct them properly. Maybe you were hit by a spoon and you think you turned out okay. Drawing a paralell between the two and saying you didn't enjoy Carrabas as much as you should have because violence against children has gone out of fashion is incorrect. Adults who hit children are wrong. My God. If I see an adult hit a kid with a spoon I'm going to take that spoon and hit the adult, see how they like. I'll stop beating them when they promise me to stop beating children.

If you're raising children there are proper ways to teach them and discipline them. If you don't know them there are a lot of resources available to you to educate and help you. Even if your parents hit you and you're convinced you're fine it is wrong for adults to hit children. Please don't do this.

A nostalgia trip back to the halcycon days when violence in the home kept everyone fat and happy. Nice thread.

Harry Lime

 

[Solomon Kane]

Pro 22:15 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Pro 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left [to himself] bringeth his mother to shame.

 

[varga49]

A nostalgia trip back to the halcycon days when violence in the home kept everyone fat and happy. Nice thread.

Harry Lime

To equate violence in the home with a structured environment is, of course, the old comparison between apples and oranges. No one with the initial point of discussion, as far as I can tell, after re-reading all posts, mentioned violence in the home. Sure one poster may have used descriptive words/language (whooped, licks) that could easily provoke contrary thought. Only the posters who took the counter point wrote descriptive words that equate to violence ("hit","beaten", and heh heh "fondly beaten"). Actually, knee jerk reactions to the subject are common. but they usually go arye (<--is that really a word?) when communication breaks down. I didn't get the impression that anyone who made the initial point, condones child abuse and/or violence, Maybe the descriptive words/language used had a bit too much flare. Posting in forums is well known for the over-embellishment of stories! I found Colonel's statement humorous only in that it is so descriptive and recognizable to me, hell I'm still laughing! OK I looked down and just notice I was standing on a soap box...I'll go finish my coffee now. EVERYONE have a great day! ps Please kindly be advised that I am not referring to anyone as a "knee jerker"!

 

[Section10]

my 2 cents

My parents spanked me as a child but I felt like it wasn't a lesson for me but more an expression of their anger toward me. I never considered myself abused and I still don't, but I wish that when parents spank they would do it with a cool head and make sure the child understands that it is a necessary part of learning to recognize that when he does wrong consequences are involved. Authority MUST be submitted to (and believe me that's a hard statement to drag out of one who generally speaking has shown little regard for it over the years). But there's no avoiding it. Normal healthy kids misbehave for only one basic reason -- because they can.

 

[varga49]

WOW Section 10

My parents spanked me as a child but I felt like it wasn't a lesson for me but more an expression of their anger toward me. I never considered myself abused and I still don't, but I wish that when parents spank they would do it with a cool head and make sure the child understands that it is a necessary part of learning to recognize that when he does wrong consequences are involved. Authority MUST be submitted to (and believe me that's a hard statement to drag out of one who generally speaking has shown little regard for it over the years). But there's no avoiding it. Normal healthy kids misbehave for only one basic reason -- because they can.

you hit that nail squarley on the head! here's your cigar!!

 

[Colonel]

It was my intent to just state my point and leave it at that, but it appears that there is a real cultural divide here. On one side are those who see corporal discipline as child abuse, beating, whipping, etc. On the other side are those of us who were raised in homes where corporal discipline was one alternative available and used by our parents. Let me make this really clear - corporal discipline is NOT child abuse. It is NOT "beating". "Getting a whipping" does NOT mean literally being whipped (my guess is that the phrase is just a term used here in The South, but I don't know for certain).

Everyone has their own touchstone or point of reference or final authority. Solomon Kane quoted from my final authority. If you see things differently, then that is entirely your choice. We all make our choices and accept the consequences.

Harry Lime, I am assuming that you were not serious in saying that you'd hit the adult. There are not many places that I know of where you yourself, would not end up getting the beating, or perhaps even shot. Interfering in the legitimate parenting duties of others is inexcusable. Please refer back to my first paragraph here.

Corporal discipline is (in any case that I'm familiar with) the discipline of last resort - but it is clearly an option when called for. I doubt that I "got a whipping" more than maybe a dozen times in my life. My sister never got one that I'm aware of.

Let me relate a story from about 2 years ago. A woman had come to our church for a couple weeks. She had a teenaged son who was simply out of control. She talked to several folks looking for advice, and someone suggested she talk to another teenaged boy in the youth group and ask him. She chose the pastor's 16 year old son who also knew her son. His reply? "He just needs a good whipping when it's called for. He has figured out that he can walk all over you, and until you make it clear in a way he will understand, he will continue to walk all over you." (Or words to that effect. I didn't hear the conversation myself. It was told to me by the pastor.) Just for emphasis, this was not a parent, but a 16 year old boy giving that reply.

As for the issue of respect that someone brought up: Respect is something that is earned. One does not get respect simply by existing and flaunting legitimate authority. A parent is clearly the legitimate authority over a child, and the parents DUTY (not just a right or a privilege) is to instill respect for legitimate authority so that the child (both now and as an adult) will have the respect of others.

This is my last post on this thread, since I don't want to carry it too far, and I certainly am not going to try to dictate to others how to raise their children. Consider carefully, make your choice, then live with the consequences. In the mean time, if you strongly oppose corporal discipline, please understand that you just might not have all the answers, so leave others to raise their children as they see fit. (It should go without saying, but none of this applies to real child abuse!)

 

[shamus]

Pro 22:15 Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Pro 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left [to himself] bringeth his mother to shame.

What is this?

 

[Harry Lime]

Interesting philosophical points.

It was my intent to just state my point and leave it at that, but it appears that there is a real cultural divide here. On one side are those who see corporal discipline as child abuse, beating, whipping, etc. On the other side are those of us who were raised in homes where corporal discipline was one alternative available and used by our parents. Let me make this really clear - corporal discipline is NOT child abuse. It is NOT "beating". "Getting a whipping" does NOT mean literally being whipped (my guess is that the phrase is just a term used here in The South, but I don't know for certain).

Everyone has their own touchstone or point of reference or final authority. Solomon Kane quoted from my final authority. If you see things differently, then that is entirely your choice. We all make our choices and accept the consequences.

Harry Lime, I am assuming that you were not serious in saying that you'd hit the adult. There are not many places that I know of where you yourself, would not end up getting the beating, or perhaps even shot. Interfering in the legitimate parenting duties of others is inexcusable. Please refer back to my first paragraph here.

Corporal discipline is (in any case that I'm familiar with) the discipline of last resort - but it is clearly an option when called for. I doubt that I "got a whipping" more than maybe a dozen times in my life. My sister never got one that I'm aware of.

Let me relate a story from about 2 years ago. A woman had come to our church for a couple weeks. She had a teenaged son who was simply out of control. She talked to several folks looking for advice, and someone suggested she talk to another teenaged boy in the youth group and ask him. She chose the pastor's 16 year old son who also knew her son. His reply? "He just needs a good whipping when it's called for. He has figured out that he can walk all over you, and until you make it clear in a way he will understand, he will continue to walk all over you." (Or words to that effect. I didn't hear the conversation myself. It was told to me by the pastor.) Just for emphasis, this was not a parent, but a 16 year old boy giving that reply.

As for the issue of respect that someone brought up: Respect is something that is earned. One does not get respect simply by existing and flaunting legitimate authority. A parent is clearly the legitimate authority over a child, and the parents DUTY (not just a right or a privilege) is to instill respect for legitimate authority so that the child (both now and as an adult) will have the respect of others.

This is my last post on this thread, since I don't want to carry it too far, and I certainly am not going to try to dictate to others how to raise their children. Consider carefully, make your choice, then live with the consequences. In the mean time, if you strongly oppose corporal discipline, please understand that you just might not have all the answers, so leave others to raise their children as they see fit. (It should go without saying, but none of this applies to real child abuse!)

A lot to mull on semantics, "needed discipline" and "final authority." All over whether or not it's justified for a fully grown adult to lay a hand on a child. Hmmm.

What if...

You were dining at Carrabas. And your child was really acting up, really not behaving the way you thought he should. So you "took him out to the woodshed" and corrected the situation with corporal punishment because discipline and respect was needed and you're a "good parent.". Then this happens...

Someone who was much bigger and stronger than you and didn't think laying hands on a child was ever a proper thing to do and wasn't familiar with the semantics and logic of your view came over, grabbed you, threw you over his knee and beat your bare ass senseless in front of everyone at Carrabas, including your child?

He viewed himself as the higher authority on this issue than you, he had a different touchstone, and decided to correct your actions with "a measure of last resort" as you put it, corporal punishment.

Would your child respect you anymore? Would anyone? All of Volucia County might remember you as the guy who had his ruby-red baboon butt exposed at the I'talian restaurant because it would probably make the paper.

It would be wrong because hitting to correct actions is wrong.

Hitting is hitting. When it's posted on the internet as a good idea it becomes everyone's business. Standing up against it isn't something I consider "not minding my own business" or telling someone else how to raise their child. No matter where you are.

Even the Preacher's Kid says it's okay, and hey, he's a Preacher so he must be a good parent, right. I mean, every single one of them is by definition.

My God.

Harry Lime

 

[Panamabob]

Solomon,

The OT's covenant has been fulfilled with love.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I was reminded yet again of how far we've drifted from the rod when I was at dinner with my family tonight at the local Carabba's tonight. For those of you who have been, you know how good Carabba's food is, and for those of you who don't, it is some mighty good Italian.

But I digress. We were seated next to a large table with perhaps seven or eight persons around it. Unfortunately for me, I was closest to it. For the first half-hour of our seventy minute recline, I was treated to being about two feet from a small child that severely lacked guidance. Aside from squabbling with her senior sister, she seemed to have a fetish for standing next to her chair and moving spasmodically. Then she started moving around the table for some unnecessary reason and her head brushed against me. Then I snapped internally.

I go to a restaurant with my family. We pay good money to sit and be served by charismatic waiters and fine chefs in a relaxing atmosphere; and I do not appreciate it when parents are so inconsiderate of their fellow man that they neglect to teach their offspring proper manners for said situation. I would have gotten my proverbial hide tanned if I had done that. But this country is festering with people who are continually telling us how to raise children minus the woodshed.

I'll tell you what I was raised with. A wooden spoon, effectively wielded with deadly accuracy by my mother. An infraction? Three to five licks. I balk? Ten. And I can tell you that it grew me up quick. So quick that I am world-weary and cynical by the age of sixteen. While my friends ponder rock bands and driving I can be found curled up in bed at night with a book regarding history or economics.

Sorry for rambling, but I had to get all that out.

I made a new years resolution not to say anything contentious in the Observation Bar. I think i've kept the vow ...

In my experience, there is pretty much no difference in the behaviour of a child who is spanked/disciplined/beat/whooped (whatever you want to call it). I'm close enough to childhood to remember the differences/similarities between me and my contemporaries. Kids behave like kids. That's what they are and they behave like it. Physical discipline is no better than the other forms. And apparently no worse. Depends upon your point of view. I think that a person has no right to hit any other person - child or otherwise. Others believe otherwise.

How do we know that the misbehaving child in Carabba's (whatever that is) was not beaten? That could have been the neighbourhood abused kid.

bk

 

[Section10]

In my experience, a child who is harassed and bullied by his parents exhibits no better behavior than any other indulged child, but a child who knows that a good spanking is part of the tool kit of responsible and affectionate parents, there is a pronounced improvement in his behavior when compared to the others.