"Treatment of Merchant Ship Survivors by U-Boat Crews 1939-1945"

[The Lonely Navigator]

Hello,

I understand most don't come across Kriegsmarine stuff at WWII events so they aren't really exposed to much of the information except online.

This is a really good article in uboat.net on the treatment of merchant ship survivors by U-Boat crews.

"Treatment of Merchant Ships Survivors by U-Boat Crews 1939-1945" by Ken Dunn

Excerpt: In general the treatment of merchant ship survivors by U-boat crews was very good. It was perhaps even better than the treatment of enemy merchant ship survivors by American submarines.

It has been a common misconception by many including some in Germany that during World War II U-boats machine-gunned survivors of the ships they sunk. There have been allegations that they machine-gunned the lifeboats to make them unusable to escape in, that they machine-gunned lifeboats as the men were getting in them and as they were being lowered, and that men were machine-gunned while in the water. These stories were however, rarely reported for the record at the time by the crews of ships sunk or damaged by U-boats. The questions were asked when the survivors were debriefed though and the answers were over and over again, "No we were not fired on in the lifeboats or in the water". On the contrary, the official records are full of stories about U-boat crews giving survivors directions to land or giving them medical care etc. The machine-gunning stories have however crept into a large number of books, magazines, movies and newspaper articles, etc.

As recently as April 21, 2000 a U-boat machine-gunning men in a lifeboat was depicted in the movie U-571. The movie wasn't true and neither was the scene containing the machine-gunning but many still believed it.

It is quite easy to see why so many still believe those stories. The Third Reich committed some horrendous atrocities during that war and as a result way too many folks are willing to believe any story about the German war machine without the slightest question and without any investigation at all.

 

[reetpleat]

It may well be a fabrication started as propaganda during the war. This is quite common. In WW1 there were reports of German soldiers throwing babies in the air and catching them on their bayonettes. this same story seems to resurface in just about every war since. the modern version was about Iraqi soldiers throwing babies out of incubators in the first gulf war. later, it was shown to be a lie perpetrated by an american PR firm. But it did help whip up popular support.

 

[Smithy]

From memory there is only one confirmed incident of a U-boat firing on survivors in the water and this was early in the war I believe.

Due to space and supply constraints on the U-boats, obviously they were unable to pick up survivors but there are many reported situations of U-boat crews throwing survival equipment and supplies to survivors in the water.

I think as Prien and reetpleat mention, such stories served propoganda purposes. Interestingly the U-boat service was one of the least "nazified" wings of the German military.

Thanks for the link to the article.

 

[The Lonely Navigator]

You're both Welcome.

Gordon Williamson's book : Wolfpack the Story of the U-Boat in World War II does mention that it was the least political branch of all the forces in the Wehrmacht. That book is one I highly recommend to anyone interested as it is essentially 3 books in one. Can get used copies cheap through allbookstores.com.

I thought of another interesting link to add here regarding convoys - it gives a pretty comprehensive convoy listing:

Convoy Index

Some of you folks may find that interesting as well.

 

[Mike K.]

I realize this is a bit off topic, but the talk about German U-boats got me thinking about a very interesting local story. Here in southwest Florida, some of the old-timers that were children/teens during WWII can recount stories of how all the beach communities were required to "black out" at night because of patrolling U-boats (the shipping lanes from Jacksonville around to Galveston were particularly dangerous). Following the sinking of one U-boat off the southwest Florida coast, the body of a German submariner was picked up...in his pocket was a ticket from the local theater!! The crew actually anchored in some hidden spot and came ashore for a little R & R.

 

[Lone_Ranger]

The Laconia Incident, is relevant here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident

This event profoundly affected the operations of the German fleet, which abandoned the practice of attempting rescue of civilian survivors under the "Laconia Order" of Admiral Karl Dönitz.

The “Laconia Incident” is a controversial incident from World War II that set the precedent for the subsequent unrestricted submarine warfare for not only the German Navy, but also for the US Navy. The on-going controversy comes from the level of required assistance and/or protection that military forces must afford non-combatants in war at sea. One international bestseller and numerous articles on the subject have been publish about this South Atlantic incident. It raises the following points of study for not only military historians but also practitioners of war and peace to consider. • What to do with regard to non-combatants during military combat operations at sea? • Minor tactical decisions made on both sides can and do set precedents with current and possible future strategic level impact. • In war, there are no “Black or White” answers, only grey ones made with a minimal set of facts in the heat of battle.

Previous to the incident it was common for U-boats to attempt to rescue survivors. Admiral Dönitz issued orders prohibiting U-boat commanders from attempting rescues after the incident.

However, in Dönitz defense, it's not like a U-boat has room to pick up a merchant ship crew, and it also gives away the advantage of surprise, which is the U-boats only defense.

I believe that Dönitz was given orders from Goebbels (?) to machine gun survivors, in that the crews were valuable to the war effort, and would be harder to replace than the ships. Dönitz refused to do this on the grounds that it was against the rules of warfare. Supposedly these orders were rescinded later. (I can't find a reference for this, I remember reading it recently)

 

[The Lonely Navigator]

Hello MikeK. - My friend told me about how down in the Gulf Coast during the "Drumbeat" operations, some of the folks down there would make a spot on the beach and actually watch the war going on.

When I was at the WWII event in Reading this past weekend, I heard that along the East Coast the coastal cities didn't want to black-out due to tourism, but eventually they had to.

Hello Lone Ranger -

Yes there is also the Laconia Incident.

The article is also in the uboat.net site: Laconia Incident

There is quite a bit regarding Doenitz and the Nuremburg Trials:

The excerpt is from the page on Doenitz:

In the Nuremberg trials Dönitz was accused of war crimes. Most sensible people agree that the German U-boats fought hard but fair considering the situation. [No one tries to deny the war crimes committed by the Germans before and during the war though]. Thus many say that Dönitz was simply punished for being too efficient at his job and his U-boats having been to much of a threat to allied shipping and the outcome of the war. Dönitz served 11 years and 6 months in prison, the last ten years at Berlin-Spandau.

Here is the link on the Drumbeat Operation

Excerpt:

War against America

With the japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbour on Dec 7, 1941 Hitler was bound by a promise to Japan to also declare war on the US. He did so promptly on Dec 11 and after that all restrictions on German U-boats (which had been attacked and hunted by US convoy escorts in the North Atlantic for the last 5-6 months of 1941 anyway without permission to attack the US escorts) not to attack American shipping were removed. This opened up a whole new field for Dönitz which immediately drew up plans for a devastatingly swift blow on the US eastern seaboard.

Dönitz wanted to strike with 12 type IX boats, the only boats capable of cruising that far. But he was forced to reduce that number to 6 boats due to other engagements of Hitler's preferences of the Gibraltar area. One of the 6 boats marked for this opertation, U-128 was in need of urgent repairs and could not make it in time. Thus only 5 boats sailed.

 

[Smithy]

I realize this is a bit off topic, but the talk about German U-boats got me thinking about a very interesting local story. Here in southwest Florida, some of the old-timers that were children/teens during WWII can recount stories of how all the beach communities were required to "black out" at night because of patrolling U-boats (the shipping lanes from Jacksonville around to Galveston were particularly dangerous). Following the sinking of one U-boat off the southwest Florida coast, the body of a German submariner was picked up...in his pocket was a ticket from the local theater!! The crew actually anchored in some hidden spot and came ashore for a little R & R.

Along the same vein but possibly even more incredible is the report that a long range U-boat surfaced off the east coast of the North Island of NZ and a small party of German submariners came ashore to obtain fresh milk.

This was widely reported in the news in NZ in the mid to late 90s (IIRC) after the incident came to light in a German U-boat skipper's memoirs. Sorry can't remember the skipper's name nor which boat it was.



EDIT: Just looked this up and it turns out that this is bunkum. A U-boat commander Timm made the claim in his memoirs but it is believed that he was telling porkies and thus not true.

 

[The Lonely Navigator]

Hello,

Yes there's quite a few "myths" out there...

UBoat.net: Myths and Stories
:eusa_doh:

 

[Chas]

Hello,

Yes there's quite a few "myths" out there...
:eusa_doh:

Yes, the myth that the U-Boat service wasn't NAZI-fied. It was. Gunther Prien was an enthusiastic NAZI, as were many of the U-Boat commanders. Donitz was certainly a NAZI, and was well aware of what the state was doing, especially with regards to forced labor in the U-Boat construction programme. He certainly had no problem with it.

The most pervasive myth is that of the "noble German, just defending his country". It is a bald-faced lie!

From Poland....yeah, right. They were all criminals in uniform. No single arm of the German armed forces escapes blame for atrocities. The regular Wehrmacht participated in rounding up Jews in occupied territories, participated in anti-partisan massacres, and there was the "Night And Fog" decree as well. The Luftwaffe machine-gunned bailed out pilots in their parachutes, and strafed columns of refugees as part of the blitzkrieg doctrine (to create panic and to jam up the roads).

As far as the machine-gunning of survivors goes, "Mush" Morton, the hero of the "Silent Service" in the Pacific holds the record. IIRC, he sank a Japanese troopship off the New Guinea coast, and the survivors opened fire on the USS Wahoo with small arms. So he did the right thing; he opened up on them with the AA guns and with MG's from the bridge. Body count in the area of 300-400, I believe.

 

[Smithy]

Yes, the myth that the U-Boat service wasn't NAZI-fied. It was. Gunther Prien was an enthusiastic NAZI, as were many of the U-Boat commanders. Donitz was certainly a NAZI, and was well aware of what the state was doing, especially with regards to forced labor in the U-Boat construction programme. He certainly had no problem with it.

The most pervasive myth is that of the "noble German, just defending his country". It is a bald-faced lie!

Chas,

Nobody here said that the U-boat service was not "nazified". What was stated was that the U-boat service was one of the least "nazified" services within the German wartime military. This is very well documented in relevant literature. For example in "German Seaman 1939 - 1945" by Williamson and White:

"A particularly significant factor in understanding the high morale, sense of honour and devotion in the German Navy, is that it was by far the least politically involved of all the branches of the German military and paramilitary forces."

 

[The Lonely Navigator]

It's also stated in the book by Gordon Williamson: "Wolfpack The story of the U-Boat in WWII" that those who were either members in the SS or NSDAP were obliged to revoke their memberships.

I don't know what makes one a Nazi personally - is it subscribing to the economic principles of NS? Is it anti-Semitism?

Uboat.net has a good thread on this: Commanders - Nazi's or Not

The second post in the thread:

Note that being member or the NSDAP doenst mean automatically that one is a devoted nazi, Prien was member before 1933, but mostly because of the economical circumstances of the time and not due to racial or political beliefs.

(My italics)

Sixth post down in that thread:

As Funkmeister points out even defining what it meant to be a “Nazi” is a slippery slope. Party membership isn’t definitive as many joined just to keep their jobs or because they believed in a strong government etc. and didn’t realize that the despicable aspects of the party would actually be carried out. The crimes of the “Nazis” escalated over time and the worst crimes were kept secret from most Germans. Indeed general knowledge the worst crimes didn’t occur until after the war. Others embraced even the worst aspects of the party but never joined the party. In the middle are the children that were brought up in a police state with the press and the church totally controlled by the Nazi government. All youth organizations were eventually incorporated into the Hitler Youth and later membership became mandatory. Being exposed to Nazi ideology wasn’t optional for them. Teaching German children the “principals” of the Nazi party was one of Hitler’s worst crimes in my opinion.

Please read more before making such judgments.

To the mods of the Lounge - it was not my intention for this thread to go this way, but I am posting this reply (even though some stated earlier that it was the least political of all the branches)

Adolf Hitler: "'I have a reactionary Army, a National Socialist Air Force and a Christian Navy."

Sincerely,

Prien