Oxford Bags

[Baron Kurtz]

Those look like something Old Town would put out. Good stuff.

bk

 

[Two Types]

Those 'Cleaverly Pants' look good, although at $95 in 1982, they weren't exactly cheap. The fullness around the seat certainly has an authentic look.

 

[herringbonekid]

found this picture yesterday which clearly shows another of the fluffy fabric 'bags' as seen in the Alan Flusser scan on page 14 of this thread.

these aren't very clear but several pairs also appear to be 'fuzzies':

i'm beginning to strongly suspect that this is what Oxford Bags were; a fuzzy warm trouser to wear on sports days, and that the much repeated tale of them being a trouser to pull over plus fours (in the classroom !) is basically urban myth.

 

[Two Types]

Very interesting. In particular the second picture, which appears to be much older than the rest. Also picture 3 is from 1930, by which time 'bags' were considered to be out of fashion. Thus, under this new hypothesis, the original Oxford Bags were from a much earlier time, and lasted longer, as a genuine sports trouser.

This is potentially a very good example of fashion history mythbusting.

I am sure there will be more to come.

 

[Two Types]

Oxford University Rowing Club

This link http://www.chch.ox.ac.uk/college/boat-club/features/WAL-Fletcher shows a couple of pictures of a famous Oxford University rower, 'Flea' Fletcher. Although Victorian and Edwardian trousers were typically narrow, he appears (in the illustration) to be wearing very loose white trousers. The 1860s photograph also shows the man on the right wearing very wide trousers, that appear flared (although this might just be the way he has crossed his legs).

This would fit in with HBK's theory that Oxford Bags derived from the traditional Oxford University sports trousers (not a trouser developed to cover plus-fours).

 

[herringbonekid]

he 1860s photograph also shows the man on the right wearing very wide trousers, that appear flared (although this might just be the way he has crossed his legs).

flared or not, they're very wide for a Victorian trouser. the date on the photo at the bottom is 1893... much earlier than the official Oxford Bag legend.
a red herring or the plot thickening ?

 

[Two Types]

The plot thickens ....

Tonight I hope to post some photos of the Oxford University Water polo team in the late 19th century. There is a comparative photograph of the Cambridge team in the same year. Once again, the Oxford team are wearing trousers in a much fuller cut.

We shall have to sell the tv rights to this thread:

'The Fashion Detectives' coming to the History Channel very soon.

 

[Yeps]

'The Fashion Detectives' coming to the History Channel very soon.

That would never fly. Maybe if it was something like "Fashion Detectives: Aliens Among Us" they might run it.

 

[Two Types]

Back onto the origins of the 'Oxford bags'. Here is the Cambridge University waterpolo team from 1897:

And here is the Oxford team, the same year. Looking at the man sitting on then right, we can see that his trousers are far baggier than those worn in the Cambridge team:

I know this doesn't prove anything, but it does support the hypothesis that students in Oxford were wearing wider trousers than their contemporaries elsewhere long before the early 1920s.

 

[Two Types]

And here are a couple of mid-1920s cartoons about Oxford Bags:

What to do with your 'bags' when they go out of fashion (1925):

and:

 

[Qirrel]

I can't remember where I read it (In some tailoring magazine or cutting book I'm sure, but it is hard to find when I can't search the contents.), but I have seen references to the making of "trousers for sport" or something along those lines. Apparently it was not uncommon to make them with 20", or larger, bottoms. (Compare to the usual style of the day (late victorian/edwardian), which fluctuated between 16 and 18 inches.

Flared bottoms, were, by the way, not in the victorian/late victorian period. One style referred to as the "New Lambeth Cut" in Vincent's C.P.G. has "15 inch knees, 22 inch bottoms."

Edit:

Ah, found it. (Well not exactly it, but it describes the same thing. From W.D.F. Vincents C.P.G.)

"Trousers are used for Tennis Cricket and Boating purposes, and are made of striped or white flannel. The principal features to be observed when cutting are (1) extra width to the legs and plenty of inlays, (2) extra length to the legs, for however carefully they may be cleaned, the nature of wool to feed or grow thicker at the expense of length will assert itself... ...Drill is sometimes used for this purpose, but as this does not shrink in the water, it is not necessary to cut them so long and full; still, as they are substitutes for the long and full flannels they must not be cut too skimpy."

Frequent washing may explain the apparent fuzziness.

 

[Two Types]

Excellent. More evidence to point us towards sporting trousers as the origins of the Oxford Bags, rather than trousers worn over plus fours.

What is the date for the quotation?

 

[herringbonekid]

i really like this whole look; the fuzzies worn with dark (probably black) boots rather than white shoes as you might imagine. the dark blazers, and v-neck jumpers.
looks like late teens-early 20s. i might have to try and find some really thick cream flannel to make a similar trouser.

 

[Two Types]

Looking at the picture, I think it might be earlier. Something about the look makes me think pre-Great War.

 

[Qirrel]

Looking at the picture, I think it might be earlier. Something about the look makes me think pre-Great War.

I agree. I think 1890s mid 1910s at the latest. Look at the very high buttoning jackets, boots and tall stiff collars.
My quotation is from between 1890 and 1900. (The book does not have a date.)

 

[Qirrel]

i might have to try and find some really thick cream flannel to make a similar trouser.

A good tip, if you can't find the weight you are looking for, is to process your own wool. Simply put some decent weight white wool in a tub, top up with hot water and soap, then dance around in it for a couple of hours. I have managed to get up to 800 gsm wool with this method.

 

[herringbonekid]

TT and Qirrel, you're probably right about the date. 1900 - 1919 in England all looks the same to me.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

A good tip, if you can't find the weight you are looking for, is to process your own wool. Simply put some decent weight white wool in a tub, top up with hot water and soap, then dance around in it for a couple of hours. I have managed to get up to 800 gsm wool with this method.

Ok, but what to dance? The black bottom?

 

[Two Types]

Although the Oxford bags passed out of fashion in the 1920s, the sporting 'Fluffies' continued to be popular.

Oxford University Rowers in 1937:

Here are the Cambridge rowing team in 1938, also wearing 'fluffies':

Cambridge 1931. This is a good illustration of the width of the trouser:

Boat race, 1931:

'Fluffies' in Oxford, 1938:

Not certain if these are 'fluffies', but they do appear to be. Cambridge 1939:

To my mind, the 'Fluffy' trouser was the 1920s/1930s equivalent of the pull on tracksuit trouser/jogging bottoms etc of the modern world.

 

[herringbonekid]

Although the Oxford bags passed out of fashion in the 1920s, the sporting 'Fluffies' continued to be popular.

does this suggest you think the Oxford Bag is still something else apart from the fluffy, or is that sarcasm ?