are 40s fedora crowns shorter and tapered?

[Detective_Noir]

im trying to find a new hat that doesnt have taper and to no avail am i succeeding are crowns in the 40's shorter and tapered with the 2 1/2 inch brim or am i thinking of the 30's hats?

 

[mayserwegener]

All hats have some taper. You are probably looking for straighter sides (after crease) and a tall crown. The trend was towards wider brims in the 1940s but that doesn't mean there weren't 2 or 2 1/4 inch brims.

As for a new hat you can go custom (AF, Optimo, Ect.) or a open crown factory model like the Akubra Fed IV or a Borsalino Alessandria (both fit what you are looking for). Vintage is also an option (the best IMO).

 

[Joshbru3]

This is a difficult question to answer, because there is no definitive answer. As a generalization, the most popular proportions in early to mid 1930's hats are usually a 2 1/4 inch brim with a tall/straight 5 5/8 - 6 inch open crown. Now, I have seen hats from the 30's with wider brims and shorter crowns, and vise versa. There wasn't a solid rule, but MOST hats that I have collected from the early - mid 30's have the short brim/taller crown combo. Towards the end of the 30's, the hats mostly resembled 1940's hats. It wasn't so much that 1940's hats were tapered, the crowns were just rounder, therefore yielding different looking creases (Sometimes with taper). Some of them did have taper, but the majority of 1940's hats I feel used very similar blocking for open crowns. As a whole, brims did become wider in the 40's, but that's not to say that I haven't seen shorter brim/taller crown hats from the 40's either. In general, if your looking for a un-tapered/tall crown, look for that characteristic in the hat, not what decade it came from. Chances are, the hat your looking for, is probably from the late 20's/early 30's, but then again could be from the 40's as well. If you can't find what your looking for, there are many custom hatters that will make you whatever you like. Just my .02

 

[Blackthorn]

I've often wondered about all this, too...glad to see a thread on it.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

In terms of my own personal experience with vintage lids;

I have found tall, straighter crowns more common to the 1920's, 30's, and 40's, with brims being widest in the 30's and 40's. I usually find shorter, more tapered crowns as I search into the 50's and 60's with brims of 2 1/2" or less. That said, there are plenty of exceptions. Searching by era, unless you have specific models in mind, might not be the best way to go. Granted, sifting through the mountain of non-quite-right-hats of a general search to find what you seek can be a long and tedious endeavor, but the quest is worth it.

 

[Joshbru3]

Page 4 of this thread might be pretty informative on crown shapes: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?28503-Limits-of-blocking/page4

Here's some crown shapes for refference, Detective_Noir.

1920s Lion Brand Hat

Tall/untapered....but with a 2 5/8 inch brim

1920's Stetson Clear Nutira

Tall/un-tapered crown

1920s-1930s American Hat Co

Tall/untapered crown....with a 2 1/4 inch brim

1930's Gordon Fedora

very straight crown, but only 5 1/2 inches tall. Straight sides give the APPEARANCE of a taller crown. 2 1/4 inch brim

Late 1930's Stevens

Round crown, but still has some height

Early 40's Rosemont

still very straight crown, slight side taper, but only 5 1/2 inches tall. wider brim

1940's Wadsworth

straight crown, but rounded top. Yields different creases and wider brim

1950's Champ Featherweight

VERY round crown with taper and only 5 3/8 inches tall. Best crease for this crown is a c-crown.

1950's KC Custom 20

Still a nice crown shape with straight sides, but more tapered. Wider Brim

 

[Art Fawcett]

Spot on Josh!!!!

 

[Blackthorn]

With all respect, Josh, the straightness/taper will be greatly affected by the crease/bash, won't it? The fact that they start out with no taper doesn't mean they'll stay that way during bashing, right? So they can be bashed with or without taper.

 

[Mr Vim]

This is an interesting read, and I too have been wondering if there was a definitive shape to crowns for certains eras.

 

[Rabbit]

Josh, thank you so much for your time on posting this (and the other thread linked above)! The pics, combined with the words, are very informative. Much appreciated.
It's always good to have more pics and info especially when clear-cut categories cannot be made.

 

[scottyrocks]

With all respect, Josh, the straightness/taper will be greatly affected by the crease/bash, won't it? The fact that they start out with no taper doesn't mean they'll stay that way during bashing, right? So they can be bashed with or without taper.

How much material there is to work, as well as the block shape, plays a factor.

A block that has relatively straight sides, and a sudden break at the top, as opposed to a gradual curve, will yield a straighter-sided finished hat, all othe other things being equal. Some fo those other things are crown height and chosen crease. C crowns, teardrops, and 4-points give a hat straighter sides than a center dent, for instance. A taller crown also gives you more room to shape up a hat that will appear to be straighter sided hat than a shorter hat, given the same type of crease.

 

[Joshbru3]

With all respect, Josh, the straightness/taper will be greatly affected by the crease/bash, won't it? The fact that they start out with no taper doesn't mean they'll stay that way during bashing, right? So they can be bashed with or without taper.

Yes and no. Creasing is an interesting subject all together. Its very true that an un-tapered crown can be creased to have taper to an extent and a tapered crown can be creased to have no taper, but to what point. For example, a modern stetson with a 5 3/8 inch tapered open crown has straight sides probably around the 4 inch mark, so in order to achieve no taper with that tapered crown, you would have to crease the crown down to 4 inches or less. That's pretty low to me. Most of us on the lounge like nice medium - tall crowns, so in order to have a hat that will stand 4 3/4 - 5 1/4 inches tall without taper, must have an un-tapered open crown of 5 1/2 - 6 inches. A c-crown tends to square up the sides a bit more than a center dent, so if you have a 50's hat with a round topped crown and use a center dent, the hat might appear to have taper. If you take that same 1950's hat and use a c-crown, the sides might appear straighter. However, when you use a c-crown, you are also using more crown height to achieve the crease, therefore lowing the overall height of the hat.

On the flip-side, if you take a hat with a very straight/untapered crown of 6 inches tall and put a VERY deep center crease into it, what will happen at some point is the shoulders of the crown will start to bow inwards, therefore creating what looks like upper crown taper.

 

[Joshbru3]

Spot on Josh!!!!

Thanks, Art!!

Josh, thank you so much for your time on posting this (and the other thread linked above)! The pics, combined with the words, are very informative. Much appreciated.
It's always good to have more pics and info especially when clear-cut categories cannot be made.

No problem Rabbit, its my pleasure. To me, and to many here on the lounge, a hat is never simply just a hat. Theres so much to learn about a hat just by looking at it.

 

[rlk]

Spot on Josh!!!!

:arated:

Here's how deceptive open crown can be. This is the tallest non-western soft hat I have encountered scaling at 6-1/2" open crown.

This appears to be how it was originally creased:

 

[Joshbru3]

Yes and no. Creasing is an interesting subject all together. Its very true that an un-tapered crown can be creased to have taper to an extent and a tapered crown can be creased to have no taper, but to what point. For example, a modern stetson with a 5 3/8 inch tapered open crown has straight sides probably around the 4 inch mark, so in order to achieve no taper with that tapered crown, you would have to crease the crown down to 4 inches or less. That's pretty low to me. Most of us on the lounge like nice medium - tall crowns, so in order to have a hat that will stand 4 3/4 - 5 1/4 inches tall without taper, must have an un-tapered open crown of 5 1/2 - 6 inches. A c-crown tends to square up the sides a bit more than a center dent, so if you have a 50's hat with a round topped crown and use a center dent, the hat might appear to have taper. If you take that same 1950's hat and use a c-crown, the sides might appear straighter. However, when you use a c-crown, you are also using more crown height to achieve the crease, therefore lowing the overall height of the hat.

On the flip-side, if you take a hat with a very straight/untapered crown of 6 inches tall and put a VERY deep center crease into it, what will happen at some point is the shoulders of the crown will start to bow inwards, therefore creating what looks like upper crown taper.

Let me elaborate a bit more:

Here's a 1900's Etchison with a very straight and flat topped crown

I used a deep center dent in the crown and therefore, in this picture you can see the upper crown bowing inwards to created slight taper.

Here's the 1920's Stetson Nutria that I posted before in open crown. No taper, flat top

Here's the same hat with a center dent and side creases like it would have been worn in the teens/20's

This effect creates a tapered effect:

Now, that same hat with a simple "cross" crease uses some crown height but maintains the straight sides all around

Here's that same VERY round 1950's Champ featherweight from before

A center dent looks horrible because its already a round crown, and the center dent is unable to square the crown back up still keeping with a decent creased height

But a c-crown squared the hat up to an extent. Still not a straight crown by any means, but MUCH straighter than before Because the top of the crown is so round, I was unable to get a straight pinch in front. I had to leave the pinch more open and raked back.

 

[Blackthorn]

Excellent, thanks for all the intelligent replies and info.

 

[Joshbru3]

:arated:

Here's how deceptive open crown can be. This is the tallest non-western soft hat I have encountered scaling at 6-1/2" open crown.

This appears to be how it was originally creased:

Thanks for posting this, Robert! This is a great example! This 6 1/2 inch crown is round to start with, but by using some of its crown height and a center dent, the original crease was able to "square" the hat up.

 

[rlk]

Here's that same VERY round 1950's Champ featherweight from before

A center dent looks horrible because its already a round crown, and the center dent is unable to square the crown back up still keeping with a decent creased height

But a c-crown squared the hat up to an extent. Still not a straight crown by any means, but MUCH straighter than before Because the top of the crown is so round, I was unable to get a straight pinch in front. I had to leave the pinch more open and raked back.

I fully agree with your observations until you get to the Champ.

The center crease is exactly the shape this block was generally intended for. Whether that looks bad is a matter of personal taste.

The C-crown below is often seen on the F'Lounge when one is attempting to stretch their domed crown to a front pinch height beyond the limit that it can really carry and squeeze out the sides to square them more. Note that the pinch is really well up into the top curved surface of the hat, no longer at the front. Again, personal tastes vary.

 

[Blackthorn]

I'm learning a lot here.

 

[Joshbru3]

I fully agree with your observations until you get to the Champ.

The center crease is exactly the shape this block was generally intended for. Whether that looks bad is a matter of personal taste.

The C-crown below is often seen on the F'Lounge when one is attempting to stretch their domed crown to a front pinch height beyond the limit that it can really carry and squeeze out the sides to square them more. Note that the pinch is really well up into the top curved surface of the hat, no longer at the front. Again, personal tastes vary.

I completely agree that the c-crown used was not a great crease at all, and most definitely not what the manufacture had intended. The only reason I used that crease was to maintain crown height because the crown was way too low for me. I honestly think this crown shape was meant for one crease and one crease only.....the low c-crown/teardrop. The centerdent works, but even with a centerdent, the crown is too round. Here's the side profile of the centerdent.

This was another beater champ that I converted into a different beater hat. Its crown was very similar to the featherweight, but I used the low c-crown to sharpen up the lines. I had to use some crown height, but eventually the crown straightened up.

Here's a Champ Featherweight ad from 1951 that shows the hat with a C-crown. It has a thin ribbon, so the crown appears a bit taller. If a 2 inch ribbon were used on that hat, I would imagine the crown would seem pretty low.

On the flipside, here's a much earlier LaSalle (Champ) Lightweight with a crown thats not very tall at all, but fairly straight.

I guess it goes back to my point that if one were to lower a tapered crown to a certain point, it would eventually "square up."


There are SOME exceptions.........