Limited Edition Himel Bros avail. at Orvis?

[dudewuttheheck]

Both makers have aesthetic beauties that are unique to each. Himel looks to have an exquisite refinement in construction probably on the top of the heap...Aero's jackets bring the viewer into overcast visions of the tranquil Scottish fog; a semi-cottage industry creation retaining the properties of nature and its divinity. The seamstress is not at all unlike the painter. Passion. Craft. Art baby. History. Homage to the living and the past in a single garment.

No offense, but you are projecting way too much onto making a jacket.

They are not equal. Honestly, I am really annoyed about how unfairly makers such as FH, FW, RMC, and Himel are treated on this forum because they are not Aero or GW.

Everyone knows GW is better than Aero and let's all be honest, if you take everything into account, so are all other brands I mentioned above. The construction quality, materials, and attention to detail is higher. That does NOT mean that they are worth the extra cost at all. However, if you look objectively, technically, they are slightly better jackets.


Everyone is going to hate me for saying this, but someone prove to me otherwise. I have handled all of the jackets mentioned other than FW (and I do own FW products that are not leather jackets) so I do have the experience to say this. There is no question Aero are slightly below. It is slight, but it is there.

I know this is a rant, but years of Aero Zionism has pushed me to this. At the end of the day, of course you'll end up with a great jacket no matter what you choose, but there is a lot of misinformation on this forum due to favoritism to Aero.

Also, I really don't mean to single out Nick here at all. This is years of buildup haha

 

[bretron]

"Aero Zionism" lol

Talk about "projecting way too much"

 

[bretron]

Sorry- That Zionist line has me cracking up all over the place. Yer a funny dude, Dude

 

[dudewuttheheck]

"Aero Zionism" lol

Talk about "projecting way too much"

I wasn't being literal. It's not that bad, I just thought it was a little joke in an otherwise quite serious post

 

[nick123]

I wasn't serious. ^ Bad pre-coffee trying too hard to be funny post. In a nutshell, was being overly dramatic with my jacket infatuation. But I do think they're pieces of art!

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I wasn't serious. ^ Bad pre-coffee trying too hard to be funny post. In a nutshell, was being overly dramatic with my jacket infatuation. But I do think they're pieces of art!

Oh, overall, I agree. Sorry for picking on your post in particular
This is really more of a response to hate I've gotten in my own threads.

 

[nick123]

Oh, overall, I agree. Sorry for picking on your post in particular
This is really more of a response to hate I've gotten in my own threads.

You're fine!

 

[dudewuttheheck]

You're fine!

Thanks! I want to go to that place you describe

 

[Monitor]

I herd Himel's really great at repairs.

 

[ton312]

This thread could easily spiral downward and become nothing more than the comments section of a YouTube video...Avoiding that temptation, for me, I have a problem with the notion that an eBay seller turned jacket maker (5 years ago?) is now supposed to be the end all be all and should be considered superior to a maker, and makers, with a combined 100 plus years more experience and thousands upon thousands more jackets produced in the very same manner. With time tested, long lasting quality. Now I wouldn't describe that as hate against Himmel. But he's a baby in the business when compared to the likes of Aero, Langlitz, Vanson and Lost worlds, Johnson Leathers etc. As are many of the brands you mentioned above, most of which sprung up and struck while the iron was hot and the Japanese obsession with Americana Harley Davidson culture was approaching its apex. It'll be interesting to see if those brands have sustainability and the same kind of customer loyalty over the next 30-40 years.
Material superiority is, as we've discussed before, opinion based. You will not convince me Shiniki is nicer than CXL and vice versa.
Stitch count-meh, I don't care that much
I say this not as a Zionist. Remember, I also own a Simmons Built. More to the point, those brands you're referring to are a flash in the pan. They simply haven't EARNED it. At least in my opinion, and I believe in others as well. I wouldn't describe this as hate against you or Himmel or any Japanese repro maker but merely an observation from someone who has been collecting these things for the past 15-20 years.

 

[Benj]

I don't know, i think it's a little disingenuous to be calling him just an ebay seller 5 years ago. The guy has been in the vintage business since like the 90's, allegedly owns thousands of jackets, and all these crazy rare vintage jackets that you see in japanese magazines were bought from him. That gets street cred.

And Aero around for 30-40 years is very cool, no doubt. But if Himel comes around 5 years ago, after decades of experiences, and makes a subjectively better product (at a higher price, yes) you can't just say "oh well Aero has been around for longer, even if the techniques aren't as time consuming or aesthetically pleasing, so they should be held in higher regard". To me, whoever makes the best shit is held in higher regard, and the time they've been doing it is a plus.

And if I say something is better because x, y, and z and you don't explain why you feel it's actually not, rather saying "well actually I don't care about x, y, and z" that's a bit of a copout. By that account, nothing that is actually nicer could be seen as such. Oh, that car is insanely fast or has a real wood grain dash? Well i don't care about those things so it's actually not really better than a honda. Your denim is selvedge and custom made for the brand? Well my gustins just pick a random denim from mills and sell it to me as cheap as possible so yours aren't better. In a category where niceness for the sake of niceness is paramount, it seems weird to all of a sudden start the cutoff where brands like Himel differentiate themselves. If I were to say "you know vicenza isn't really any better than some corrected leather from some chinese tannery" people would wholeheartedly disagree, citing all these things that don't actually matter but do indeed make vicenza nicer. And I could just say "well I don't really care about those things, so it's not nicer", and most would disagree.

If you say that Himels are out of the price range for you to enjoy a jacket, and that the details and quality of other brands are sufficient for you, that's a perfectly reasonable thing and I wouldn't have anything to say (for once!). I just think we should stay as objective as possible and not, in my opinion, unreasonably justify our preferences.

 

[Gav]

Nicely put @Benj

 

[ton312]

To me, whoever makes the best shit is held in higher regard

Opinion based, no?

nothing that is actually nicer could be seen as such

OK...but if I say my CXL or Comp weight is actually nicer hide than any other leather b/c it's substantially more robust and stronger...see above
Something rubs me wrong about the hipstergram, high gloss aire of superiority that seems to surround some those brands mentioned above. Perhaps it's just not my style. I've never noticed it from any of the brands I patronize. Well, LW I suppose...
The pissing contest is pointless and childish anyway. Like I said in my previous post...It will be interesting to see just how sustainable these new makers actually are. Time will certainly tell.

 

[Superfluous]

Can a chef with a mere five years of experience surpass a chef with 35 years of experience? Of course, and it happens every day. McDonalds / Dennys have plenty of experience . . . more so than most elite restaurants . . . but . . . There are endless examples of people with innate skills that are able to quickly surpass those with far, far more experience . . . athletes that take up a sport and, in a couple of years, are far superior to those with far greater experience. There are also endless examples of newcomers that are well trained and apply a better, more refined approach to surpass competitors with far greater experience. There are also endless examples of newcomers that simply work harder and/or are more detail oriented, and thereby surpass more experienced competitors. In other words, there are countless reasons why higher quality can be achieved even with meaningfully less experience.

Chapman is a relative newbie to the world of jacket manufacturing. Yet, most here would agree that the quality of his products surpasses most far more experienced competitors.

In most industries, there is a direct relationship between manufacturing materials/time/costs and quality. Most consumers are unwilling to pay the price of the absolute best products that "spare no expense." Therefore, in order to manage/reduce the retail price of their products and thereby appeal to a broader audience of buyers, most manufacturers compromise quality -- by compromising manufacturing materials/time/costs. The degree to which a particular manufacturer compromises quality is a function of its particular target buyers. I strongly suspect that Aero has made informed decisions regarding its manufacturing materials/process in order to manage costs and the resulting price of their jackets. Of course, Aero is not alone -- everyone does this. There are very few, if any, manufactures in any industry that truly "spare no expense." The end result is a continuum of quality, and differentiation in quality among competing manufacturers.
It is undisputed that Aero makes an outstanding product. That said, its hard to argue that Aero makes the absolute best leather jacket on the planet, that surpasses all other jackets, and it is impossible to produce a better leather jacket. If you are being honest, you must acknowledge that it is possible to make an even better leather jacket, and someone, somewhere likely does. The same can be said for all jacket manufacturers . . . except one (and I don't know who that one is). I don't know why some here resist this simple maxim.

The fact that a particular buyer does not value certain factors/components that distinguish quality does not mean there is no difference in quality. Rather, it only means that the individual buyer does not care about those particular differences in quality, and that buyer makes his/her purchasing decisions accordingly. Some would argue that the benefits of first class air travel are irrelevant and coach is "just as good." Does that mean there is no difference between first class and coach? The answer is self-evident. Most consumers would argue that the factors that distinguish Aero jackets from mall jackets are entirely irrelevant -- perhaps even undesirable -- and mall jackets are just as good, if not better. For example, the average mall consumer likely believes that Aero jackets are heavy, bulky and rigid, whereas mall jackets are supple and more comfortable. Does that mean Aero jackets are no better than or inferior to mall jackets? Again, the answer is self-evident.

Lastly, if we are being truly honest, it is hard to deny that Aero receives favored status on TFL. The reasons for this are many fold, but the result is undeniable. Frankly, Aero has done much to deserve its favored status, and I am not bothered by the Aero favoritism. On the other hand, I don't pretend that it doesn't exist. Personally, I think Aero is a tremendous company and I freely exalt them, individually and collectively. Ken is an amazing man and he deserves endless praise for the institution he created, and the profound impact he has had on the vintage repro jacket industry. He is a legend, and Aero is a legend. Of course, there are other legends in the industry, and new legends are being created as we speak.

 

[Benj]

I wouldn't argue as much as I have about comparing different high quality leathers. I personally think shinki is the nicest, just from owning it and from seeing others, but when you get to nice leathers it's much more subjective and different leathers are better for different people. For casual use I like shinki the best, but if you were on a motorcycle I'd see how you could prefer something like FQHH.

And if you think that Himel's post comparing his jacket to another's and claiming it is superior has an air of superiority, well I can't blame you. But i think that there are respectful waits of doing that, and I think he did, and disrespectful or untruthful ways (ahem Bill Kelso)

Great post superfluous, exactly what I think but you convey your thoughts a bit more intellectually than I do!

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Well said, @Superfluous . I couldn't have put it any better myself.

 

[Monitor]

Fact no. 1: Shinki is a top grain, mid to light weight vegetable tanned leather.

Fact no. 2: More stitch holes does not equal construction quality. Construction quality means the jacket is well made.

Fact no. 3: Leather jackets Aero has made have been proven to last several decades.

One could easily argue that compared to Aero, Himel makes a light-weight jacket of yet undetermined durability, made from an inherently weaker leather for twice as much money. So how exactly is Himel making a better jacket than Aero, Vanson, Langlitz or anyone else for that matter?

We can all love our favorite maker but it's the story we're paying that extra grand for.

This of course isn't to say Himel is inferior to [insert brand name here. The point of what I'm saying is that it is extremely silly to say Himel makes a better jacket. Better in what regard? Best by what set of standards? He makes a good, pretty jacket, that's all. They all do, but that extra grand you spend on Himel? You're buying a story. As with any brand - or rather, as with any art. A nice, lovely story. Which is cool. We all do that. This forum is all about fantasy.

I do not own an Aero jacket.

 

[Gav]

Your 'facts' and interpretation of them can also be said for John Chapman... Another newcomer using thin weak leather and pointless neat stitching.

 

[Seb Lucas]

This is all very amusing. I really don't value the "which maker is better" arguments but it's fun to watch. The fetishisation of jackets can cross a line all too quickly. Let's bring on Bill Kelso for their opinion too.

 

[Benj]

The cuff on that aero is ugly to me and the himel is beautiful. And that difference is seen throughout the jacket, I mean how the stitching looks is pretty important. It just looks bulky... I like leather jackets for purely aesthetic purposes, not because I'm looking for something durable or practical, so I value the appearance of the construction more than others do. If you want to argue that the aero looks better in that regard... well we just have very different ideas of what looks good!

And if shinki is top grain, does it really matter as long as the hide has character? I mean thats why top grain matters, right? By correcting the leather you lose the natural character of it.

Because if what we care about is the feel of the leather and it's aesthetic qualities, I would take my shinki over fqhh (full grain?) any day of the week.