guide on snide

[jchance]

A reminder of the TFL Rules, which I feel several of you have repeatedly broken:

“Members of TFL in this room are expected to treat each other … with respect …. and meet with like minded others, without fear of feeling uncomfortable, harassed or bullied.

…. sadly there may be times when there are individuals of a minority mindset who arrogantly think that they are above the rules and feelings of others and may feel that it is acceptable to be disrespectful, … and to berate others and undermine the good nature of a particular thread and so by default TFL as a community.
…
This is NOT a public soapbox to use as a means of ridiculing and attacking others.

Unlike other areas of the WWW where personal attacks, bunfights or harassment from the anonymous safety of a computer half way around the world is seen as acceptable, IN HERE IT IS NOT and will bring into question whether 'this' is the right forum for you.“

I didn’t need to report you to a mod to moderate you. There are tools I could use, as the OP, to respond to you. A no-response is a response. You get a respectful disagreement from me if you have conducted yourself respectfully.

It takes a question, thoughts, and knowledge to start a thread. You’re welcome to start your own, but I don’t see you doing that. Starting a thread was me sharing my knowledge not to you old-timers but to the newbies. Obviously once the info is posted, it can be subject to correction. That’s me being vulnerable and intellectually humble. If you come in the threads respectfully and make comments that advance the topic, you’re welcome there. Otherwise, I’m not going to tolerate your disrespect and ad hominem attacks of mockery and snide remarks (“jchance’s random thoughts and opinion about leather”, “egoism”, “megalomania”, “AI”, “Eric Cartman behavior”).

@The Lost Cowboy has this either/or thinking, but both a “lounge” and a wiki are not mutually exclusive. They can both exist simultaneously, and where do you think the people in the Lounge hang out at? In the thread discussing about the question that the OP posted. Until a thread takes on a life of its own, I as the OP could shut down a thread quicker than starting one, as you have seen.

What is a thread in a lounge then? The example used in VLJ is apt here. The mods there “ask that you exhibit the same respect and common sense that you'd have visiting a friend in their house-you may not agree with all the topics discussed, but you'd treat your hosts and the other guests with decency, civility, and respect. At least, we'd hope so (or you'd not be invited back). … You also have the responsibility to carry yourself with class and honor, and treat other people just as you'd treat them in person. It's far too easy to hide behind the veil of the internet, and think that … gives you free rein to treat people any way you want, or spout hatred. … if this forum ceases to be fun for us … we reserve the right to shut it down and walk away.” The OP is the host of the topic for discussion. If you “undermine the good nature of a particular thread” with your non-constructive and disrespectful responses, the host can shut it down. I didn’t need to call the cops (mods) on you.

My former thread was on “guide on hide.” Did you consult with the dictionary whether my usage of the word “guide” was appropriate? Was there no broadest interpretation for me to have used the word “guide” correctly, or was your mind too narrow? How about something as simple as Merriam-Webster’s third definition: “c: something that provides a person with guiding information”? Did your response constructively advance the topic or “undermine the good nature of a particular thread”?

If you come in a thread with a “misinformation” accusation, show me with facts and evidence where—how, and why—the errors in my thinking and knowledge were, so others and I can learn. Otherwise, you can keep your empty accusations to yourself.

The first half of @ABCD ‘s response actually merits a response on the former topic of hides because that was the only response of substance. Too bad he didn’t even see what I posted, so he fell back on his confirmation-bias logical fallacy (“The ‘pigskin' example that was shown by jchance most likely wasn't pigskin”). It’s not my job to fix his thinking, whether I’m 90% correct and sometimes 10% wrong, or whether I’m 10% correct and mostly 90% wrong. While his factoid was interesting, it doesn’t apply here.

Below is the pigskin example I posted. The tells were the three-dotted pores of hair follicle. However, to distinguish between real pigskin and printed pigskin, it is the presence of two-dotted, four-dotted, and five-dotted pores of hair follicle. As with the gator family’s authentic leather vs fake leather (and real diamond vs lab diamond), the unevenness and irregularity of the natural grain pattern is what makes it genuine.

30s-40s Kit Karson

By way of another example, below was a recent thread where some/most of y’all lack civility and respect to a newbie, which left the forum. He actually asked really interesting questions, but shame on you.

The absolute thickest/heaviest clothes in their class for each kind of clothes

So, I'm new both to this website and to high end men's fashion in general. It's recent occurred to me that I personally think that a lot of the value of things like Selvedge Denim, leather jackets, etc is durability. I was as a kid and continue to be rough on my clothes. As such, I'm drawn to...

www.thefedoralounge.com

This thread’s topic is on civility and respect (this thread’s former title). Did you check the attitude and the tone of your responses? I’m still the OP. My thread and posts can self-delete faster than a Snap, as you have seen.

 

[cbez]

 

[JMax]

I’m glad you love leather, jackets, etc., like I do. It could be a great back and forth. But GD this post. Dial it back and enjoy the forum. Good people here man. Breathe, take it in, enjoy.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

@The Lost Cowboy has this either/or thinking, but both a “lounge” and a wiki are not mutually exclusive. They can both exist simultaneously, and where do you think the people in the Lounge hang out at? In the thread discussing about the question that the OP posted. Until a thread takes on a life of its own, I as the OP could shut down a thread quicker than starting one, as you have seen.

Since you named me, I will respond.

You haven't shut down anything - the thread you started and attempted to "delete" still exists and has continued to grow without you. These comments just truly sound manic to me - they are certainly irrational.

You're right, making a wiki within TFL does not have to run counter to what a "Lounge" is. But enough Loungers have demonstrated by now why you do not exhibit the knowledge and/or experience to make such a contribution all by yourself. Yet you keep trying to do so anyway and then claim they are just your "opinions".

It was pointed out that your "Guide to hide" contained questionable if not outright incorrect information. Rather than argue your case, you flew off the handle and garnered some blowback from the community. Now you are intent on beating us with a morality stick.

We all need community, sir. But your activities seem intent on undermining this one.

I have no more polite words for you except to wish you better days on TFL in the future.

 

[Monitor]

That's pigskin!

 

[ABCD]

The first half of @ABCD ‘s response actually merits a response on the former topic of hides because that was the only response of substance. Too bad he didn’t even see what I posted, so he fell back on his confirmation-bias logical fallacy (The ‘pigskin' example that was shown by jchance most likely wasn't pigskin”). It’s not my job to fix his thinking. While his factoid was interesting, it doesn’t apply here.

Below is the pigskin example I posted. The tells were the three-dotted pores of hair follicle. However, to distinguish between real pigskin and printed pigskin, it is the presence of two-dotted, four-dotted, and five-dotted pores of hair follicle.

No confirmation bias at all, I actually saw your 'pigskin' example before you deleted it. I just didn't feel the need to take part in this discussion as the topic of determining leather by its visual characteristics has been extensively discussed before. It is impossible to distinguish bovine from equine leather unless you perform DNA tests. You might want to lookup old threads about 'storse' (steerhide being sold as horsehide and no one could tell the difference).

Now back to my pigskin comment. I said "most likely" because there is a chance that I'm wrong, but pigskin has a follicle pattern of three dots, not two four and five. Also, look at the back of the collar, no visual pores, looks a lot like capeskin. Knowing that capeskin printed to look like pigskin was a thing back in the 30s, it was and is my opinion that your example is most likely capeskin.

 

[JMax]

That's pigskin!

Chris P. Bacon- the name of a hobbled pig that helps sick kids. True story.

Hope you are well bud.

 

[JMax]

No confirmation bias at all, I actually saw your 'pigskin' example before you deleted it. I just didn't feel the need to take part in this discussion as the topic of determining leather by its visual characteristics has been extensively discussed before. It is impossible to distinguish bovine from equine leather unless you perform DNA tests. You might want to lookup old threads about 'storse' (steerhide being sold as horsehide and no one could tell the difference).

Now back to my pigskin comment. I said "most likely" because there is a chance that I'm wrong, but pigskin has a follicle pattern of three dots, not two four and five. Also, look at the back of the collar, no visual pores, looks a lot like capeskin. Knowing that capeskin printed to look like pigskin was a thing back in the 30s, it was and is my opinion that your example is most likely capeskin.

View attachment 744064

My man!! Don’t leave us for IG. Get back here. lol. Un abrazo bud.

 

[jchance]

But enough Loungers have demonstrated by now why you do not exhibit the knowledge and/or experience to make such a contribution all by yourself. Yet you keep trying to do so anyway and then claim they are just your "opinions".

It was pointed out that your "Guide to hide" contained questionable if not outright incorrect information.

Why is a thread I started interpreted as me making a contribution all by myself? I started a thread but it is open—not closed—for comments and discussion. If it is 90% there, why don’t you/people help me with the remaining 10%? The former thread wasn’t named “the TFL guide on hide” or “the definitive guide on hide”, it was simply a “guide on hide”, it could have been just the OP’s or the group’s effort. It was left open for interpretation, depending on the direction of where it was going. A guide is “something that provides a person with guiding information”, something to get started with.

 

[Zoro]

Alright, I'll bite as I said "it can get dangerously close to misinformation", which I stand by.

I'll start by saying that I see where The Lost Cowboy comes from and I also prefer something organic over a wiki style. This is a just preference, a wiki style doesn't bother me. A good example of a more wiki style thread that I've enjoyed would be the one on Peters Tailormade.

Until a thread takes on a life of its own, I as the OP could shut down a thread quicker than starting one, as you have seen

This is something I do not agree with. You can still do it, but I do not agree with it. In my view, as OP in a forum you're just the one starting the discussion, but you're not in charge of how the thread develops or stops developing. I find your point of view more fitting of a blog entry than a public forum.

As said, you can still do it, and you did it. Now the thread without your comments is basically people disagreeing with you and calling out your oversimplification of hides.

It is impossible to see now as you've deleted your messages, so I can only go off my unreliable memory (thus I may misremember) and say that your messages were quite absolutist, presented as facts. For example, I recall your wording was closer to "Cow has small pebbly grain" rather than "I've observed that cow often has small pebbly grain, which is more rare in other hides". The first one is an absolute fact, the second one is a statement of your experience. Perhaps I'm being too harsh here, this is something that I carry to this day after learning in my first job in customer service that affirming something as fact vs as a possibility could mark the difference between a customer being rightly upset or not ("We'll have it by Thursday" vs "We expect to have it by Thursday"; "This will work" vs "This should work").

As your thread progressed and people chimed in stating how some characteristics were found on other leathers and showing examples of such, again, I have to go off my unreliable memory and recall you either ignored it, felt confronted or dismissed it. Again, my unreliable memory, but I just don't recall you "being vulnerable and intellectually humble" at any point. I do remember you getting worked up simply because someone said they had several jackets from a certain tannery and they all had different textures.

If a guide states that a characteristic is inherent to a kind of hide in such a strong language without contemplating nuance or exceptions, but then it turns out that can also show up in other hides, that's when "it can get dangerously close to misinformation". And to me, a guide has to be as objective, detailed, factual, with as many considerations as possible. Again, my unreliable memory, but most of the examples you were posting were a handful of words with a picture as confirmation (bias?), lacking detail and nuance. Perhaps it still applies as "guide" for Merriam-Webster, it just doesn't to me, as then that would be a guide I couldn't trust. You state that when accused of misinformation, you should be shown "with facts and evidence", but seeing how dismissal you had been of others I simply found no reason to do so.

Lastly, I've never meant to offend you and I think nobody (or at least almost nobody) meant to. While I can honestly tell you I think that you are too fast promoting your opinions to objective facts, I still enjoy your interactions around the lounge. I do believe there's a disagreement here that is likely to not go away, but still be insignificant compared to the enjoyment on other Lounge topics.

 

[Harris HTM]

If you come in a thread with a “misinformation” accusation, show me with facts and evidence where—how, and why—the errors in my thinking and knowledge were, so others and I can learn.

We did. You claimed that "shinki and Thedi heavily process their hides so they look vintage".
One member mentioned that out of his 6 shinki jackets a number of them still look like new. I mentioned my Thedi which definitely does not look like vintage. Your first reaction was posting a 16min video of Himel advertizing the shinki leather, while he never mentions that "the leather undergoes a heavy process so it looks like vintage". And then deletinh your posts and asking as to discuss from now on with and among ourselves, a textbook definition of Eric Cartman behaviour.

By way of another example, below was a recent thread where some/most of y’all lack civility and respect to a newbie, which left the forum.

This is the guy who literally said that the leather crowd is as dickish as it looks?

 

[cbez]

I don't think this is going anywhere productive boyz

 

[raf]

A reminder of the TFL Rules, which I feel several of you have repeatedly broken:

“Members of TFL in this room are expected to treat each other … with respect …. and meet with like minded others, without fear of feeling uncomfortable, harassed or bullied.

…. sadly there may be times when there are individuals of a minority mindset who arrogantly think that they are above the rules and feelings of others and may feel that it is acceptable to be disrespectful, … and to berate others and undermine the good nature of a particular thread and so by default TFL as a community.
…
This is NOT a public soapbox to use as a means of ridiculing and attacking others.

Unlike other areas of the WWW where personal attacks, bunfights or harassment from the anonymous safety of a computer half way around the world is seen as acceptable, IN HERE IT IS NOT and will bring into question whether 'this' is the right forum for you.“

I didn’t need to report you to a mod to moderate you. There are tools I could use, as the OP, to respond to you. A no-response is a response. You get a respectful disagreement from me if you have conducted yourself respectfully.

It takes a question, thoughts, and knowledge to start a thread. You’re welcome to start your own, but I don’t see you doing that. Starting a thread was me sharing my knowledge not to you old-timers but to the newbies. Obviously once the info is posted, it can be subject to correction. That’s me being vulnerable and intellectually humble. If you come in the threads respectfully and make comments that advance the topic, you’re welcome there. Otherwise, I’m not going to tolerate your disrespect and ad hominem attacks of mockery and snide remarks (“jchance’s random thoughts and opinion about leather”, “egoism”, “megalomania”, “AI”, “Eric Cartman behavior”).

@The Lost Cowboy has this either/or thinking, but both a “lounge” and a wiki are not mutually exclusive. They can both exist simultaneously, and where do you think the people in the Lounge hang out at? In the thread discussing about the question that the OP posted. Until a thread takes on a life of its own, I as the OP could shut down a thread quicker than starting one, as you have seen.

What is a thread in a lounge then? The example used in VLJ is apt here. The mods there “ask that you exhibit the same respect and common sense that you'd have visiting a friend in their house-you may not agree with all the topics discussed, but you'd treat your hosts and the other guests with decency, civility, and respect. At least, we'd hope so (or you'd not be invited back).” The OP is the host of the topic for discussion. If you “undermine the good nature of a particular thread” with your non-constructive and disrespectful responses, the host can shut it down. I didn’t need to call the cops (mods) on you.

My former thread was on “guide on hide.” Did you consult with the dictionary whether my usage of the word “guide” was appropriate? Was there no broadest interpretation for me to have used the word “guide” correctly, or was your mind too narrow? How about something as simple as Merriam-Webster’s third definition: “c: something that provides a person with guiding information”? Did your response constructively advance the topic or “undermine the good nature of a particular thread”?

If you come in a thread with a “misinformation” accusation, show me with facts and evidence where—how, and why—the errors in my thinking and knowledge were, so others and I can learn. Otherwise, you can keep your empty accusations to yourself.

The first half of @ABCD ‘s response actually merits a response on the former topic of hides because that was the only response of substance. Too bad he didn’t even see what I posted, so he fell back on his confirmation-bias logical fallacy (“The ‘pigskin' example that was shown by jchance most likely wasn't pigskin”). It’s not my job to fix his thinking, whether I’m 90% correct and sometimes 10% wrong, or whether I’m 10% correct and mostly 90% wrong. While his factoid was interesting, it doesn’t apply here.

Below is the pigskin example I posted. The tells were the three-dotted pores of hair follicle. However, to distinguish between real pigskin and printed pigskin, it is the presence of two-dotted, four-dotted, and five-dotted pores of hair follicle. As with the gator family’s authentic leather vs fake leather (and real diamond vs lab diamond), the unevenness and irregularity of the natural grain pattern is what makes it genuine.

30s-40s Kit Karson
View attachment 744054

By way of another example, below was a recent thread where some/most of y’all lack civility and respect to a newbie, which left the forum. He actually asked really interesting questions, but shame on you.

The absolute thickest/heaviest clothes in their class for each kind of clothes

So, I'm new both to this website and to high end men's fashion in general. It's recent occurred to me that I personally think that a lot of the value of things like Selvedge Denim, leather jackets, etc is durability. I was as a kid and continue to be rough on my clothes. As such, I'm drawn to...

www.thefedoralounge.com

This thread’s topic is on civility and respect. Did you check the attitude and the tone of your responses? I’m still the OP. My thread and posts can self-delete faster than a Snap, as you have seen.

Please don't threaten others. Not a "good look".

 

[Monitor]

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Why is a thread I started interpreted as me making a contribution all by myself?

1. Because on all of your threads, your intention is to fill the entire first few pages with the information YOU deem pertinent. There were instances of others chiming in and you ignored them and continued on with YOUR agenda. That's you trying to do it by yourself.

To be clear, there's nothing wrong with that if the OP is bringing a lot of first-hand knowledge on a topic from, say, a personal collection. It is obvious on all those threads that you are not.

2. Because you actually tried to shut down the thread as soon as disagreement with your "guide" became insufferable to you (which didn't take long at all). So it's either your way or the highway.

3. Because you have even stated here that you have mastery over a thread that you start. That's *******t - especially if it is meant to be a guide.

4. Because you say garbage like the following:

I’ll soon start a thread on civility and respect, you may respond there if you carry yourself with the utmost civility and respect...

We "may" respond there? You're giving us permission? Seriously, I have NO polite words for that.

I'll stop here before I truly break the rules of decorum...

 

[jchance]

4. Because you say garbage like the following:
We "may" respond there? You're giving us permission?

Actually, English is not my first language, so maybe I got the usage of “may” incorrectly here. “May” was for “you” to decide, if you want to and decide to respond. I thought there was only one interpretation here, but I’m learning something new, as I have been in this thread.

Despite the seriousness of some of my arguments, there were still humors used here and there that you picked up. It’s lighthearted banter at times.

 

[Monitor]

Chris P. Bacon- the name of a hobbled pig that helps sick kids. True story.

Hope you are well bud.

Well enough.

 

[jchance]

Please don't threaten others. Not a "good look".

I’m sorry, but where was the threat that you saw? Self-deleting my own thread/posts? That’s within my rights, I didn’t need anyone’s permission to withdraw my own comments.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Actually, English is not my first language, so maybe I got the usage of “may” incorrectly here. “May” was for “you” to decide, if you want to and decide to respond. I thought there was only one interpretation here, but I’m learning something new, as I have been in this thread.

No you didn't get it wrong. The grammar of the statement was clearly conditional: "You may if you folllow my rules." It had nothing to do with if we want to respond and everything to do with if you let us.

That's actually why I quoted the comment on the other thread, in case you try to change or delete it. That comment was f'd up and now you are trying to claim you don't know what you were saying because you are still learning English?

Man, this isn't worth it. I'm done, I've got other places to put my energy than with someone like you. As I say, I wish you happier days on TFL in the future, but this is some real garbage you are putting out there.

 

[jchance]

No you didn't get it wrong. The grammar of the statement was clearly conditional: "You may if you folllow my rules." It had nothing to do with if we want to respond and everything to do with if you let us.

The quote was “you may respond there if you carry yourself with the utmost civility and respect in accordance with the TFL rules“. There was no “if you follow my rules” like you said. It was “the TFL rules” as part of the conditional statement, there was no me as the authority of “may”. I’m still confused but I’ll take notes and be more clear with my language if you’re decidedly done. I appreciate you pointing that out.