WWII Theaters of Operation... Which Do You Prefer?

Speedbird · Mar 17, 2010

I have been interested in all different areas over the years, from Europe to the Middle East to the Pacific. I have at various times avidly read anything submarine related in particular, the Royal Navy in general; I got the Mighty 8th bug in a big way but that led me on to the AVG and CBI. I feel a sense of sadness that Burma and the Far East and even Italy, is less well-known generally (outside of knowledgable forums like this) but even so, I am constantly drawn back to North Africa. I followed the well-trodden path of original SAS, PPA and LRDG but more and more find I am drawn to the less 'sexy' but equally vital elements. Both my grandfathers, one RAF, one RN served in North Africa/Med and elsewhere. It was rarely voiced but my RAF grandad was a little, I think, disgruntled that the Desert Airforce was largely forgotten - even at the time. He used to show me beautifully machined tools he had made himself from lumps of scrap metal to keep the fighters flying with basically spit, glue, ingenuity and bugger all else.

Of late, I developed a strong interest in some wierd and wonderful lesser known units, Lovat Scouts, Phantom Liaison Regiment, and also the obscure staff jobs in Cairo - the "Short Range Shepheards Group" - just what did those guys do??? I am sure it was thankless and dull but probably quite important!!!

MPicciotto · Mar 17, 2010

Speedbird said:
I have been interested in all different areas over the years, from Europe to the Middle East to the Pacific. I have at various times avidly read anything submarine related in particular, the Royal Navy in general; I got the Mighty 8th bug in a big way but that led me on to the AVG and CBI. I feel a sense of sadness that Burma and the Far East and even Italy, is less well-known generally (outside of knowledgable forums like this) but even so, I am constantly drawn back to North Africa. I followed the well-trodden path of original SAS, PPA and LRDG but more and more find I am drawn to the less 'sexy' but equally vital elements. Both my grandfathers, one RAF, one RN served in North Africa/Med and elsewhere. It was rarely voiced but my RAF grandad was a little, I think, disgruntled that the Desert Airforce was largely forgotten - even at the time. He used to show me beautifully machined tools he had made himself from lumps of scrap metal to keep the fighters flying with basically spit, glue, ingenuity and bugger all else.

Of late, I developed a strong interest in some wierd and wonderful lesser known units, Lovat Scouts, Phantom Liaison Regiment, and also the obscure staff jobs in Cairo - the "Short Range Shepheards Group" - just what did those guys do??? I am sure it was thankless and dull but probably quite important!!!

I'm continually fascinated by what the mechanics, drivers and ground crew did in far flung places like North Africa with the DAF, or the South Pacific. Also nice to know somebody else who know's about Popski's Private Army. I've read his book. How accurate is that?

Matt

Speedbird · Mar 17, 2010

Exactly! I think it is as I have grown older I grew to appreciate that it takes more than just the sharp end warriors but also stumbling across guys posting in forums that were armourers and crew chiefs and the like (I was looking up some info on an AVG pilot and found two of his ground crew making posts in the AVG forum!) - it got me wondering about the mechanics and engineers and fitters etc - my RAF grandad told me they had nothing in the Desert, no tools, hardly any parts, no proper equipment or facilities - they had to manage with what they had or could make or scavenge from something else. I think I have only really appreciated this more of late.

Popski is a legend, it is surprising he isn't better known. There is a Belgium based preservation and research group. I read the book in my teens, I don't know enough to judge how accurate it is as yet, but I remember being enthralled by it. Apparently the Belgium group were in talks with major players regarding a Band of Brothers type mini-series docu-drama but to date nothing has come of it. Too obscure, too little known - and yet again, wrong theatre - Italy just doesn't get the same coverage. If only I had endless money and talent .... :eusa_doh:

alden405 · Mar 17, 2010

Tony in Tarzana said:
It's scary how much I look like my father, especially as I get older.

Here's one of my father and his father in their Home Guard uniforms (Click on thumbnail for larger picture):

The chap on the left has an SD jacket converted to BD,very cool

Chas · Mar 17, 2010

The Pacific. Particularly the allied submarine effort against Japan.

Otherwise - the history of SOE. A quite remarkeable story about the men and women who did probably the most dangerous jobs of the war.

anon` · Mar 17, 2010

Speedbird said:
...the "Short Range Shepheards Group" - just what did those guys do??? I am sure it was thankless and dull but probably quite important!!!

Leading general staff safely home after a late night at the canteen?

For me, it's the boring and predictable ETO. In particular, the Normandy, Northern France, Rhineland and Central Europe campaigns. The African and Italian campaigns follow very closely, along with naval involvement in general.
I've been trying to boost my overall knowledge of both independent USAAF operations and the Pacific Theatre overall.

At least I can say that the ETO holds my interest largely because that's where both my grandfathers served (my dad's father was a S/Sgt with the S-2 section of 2/314, 79th Infantry and my mum's father a T/4 in A/Co, 265th ECB, 65th Infantry), and not because of That Miniseries! I also have a soft spot for the 10th Mountain, as my dad's father was originally in that unit at Camp Hale, but they shipped out to Italy while he was ill.

RLM · Mar 17, 2010

I had uncles in the PTO and ETO, so I've always been torn between both fronts. The ETO uncle was in the 8th AF, so my skyward attention is directed mostly to the ETO. My PTO uncle was a marine, so the island campaigns hold more interest for me as far as ground combat is concerned. I think Americans, being largely of European and African ancestry, tend to think of the ETO and MTO/N. Africa, more than the PTO when they think of WWII, its just easier to relate to people that look more like yourself, even though it was the Japanese that finally brought us into the war. Then there are some Americans that can't even tell you what century the WW's were fought in, but don't get me started on that:rage:

Widebrim · Mar 17, 2010

RLM said:
I think Americans, being largely of European and African ancestry, tend to think of the ETO and MTO/N. Africa, more than the PTO when they think of WWII, its just easier to relate to people that look more like yourself, even though it was the Japanese that finally brought us into the war. Then there are some Americans that can't even tell you what century the WW's were fought in, but don't get me started on that:rage:

Even though we do have some knowledge of the Pacific, we Americans tend to know more about Europe, especially since much of our culture was influenced by that continent...Regarding some people not even having a general idea of when the world wars transpired, that is a general problem. I teach even my youngest students something about our historical roots, but it is their parents who need to pass on to them the culture and history of our country. Problem is, many of them couldn't even give you a skeleton outline of a U.S. timeline (and I'm not just speaking of immigrants, which would at least be somewhat understandable, but people reared here). Heck, I probably know more about Italian/British/Mexican/French/Spanish history and culture than some Americans know about our own. Sorry for being somewhat

fftopic:.

RLM · Mar 18, 2010

Widebrim said:
Even though we do have some knowledge of the Pacific, we Americans tend to know more about Europe, especially since much of our culture was influenced by that continent...Regarding some people not even having a general idea of when the world wars transpired, that is a general problem. I teach even my youngest students something about our historical roots, but it is their parents who need to pass on to them the culture and history of our country. Problem is, many of them couldn't even give you a skeleton outline of a U.S. timeline (and I'm not just speaking of immigrants, which would at least be somewhat understandable, but people reared here). Heck, I probably know more about Italian/British/Mexican/French/Spanish history and culture than some Americans know about our own. Sorry for being somewhat fftopic:.

Widebrim, I'm guessing you teach History? I was about to say that a big part of the problem is that US history isn't taught to the extent that it used to be, which may be true to some extent; but then I realized, my wife knows very little about US history, or world history for that matter, and is several years older than me, so a change in teaching patterns over the last 30 years can't explain the entire problem. She says she wasn't taught about the World wars, or even much about the Civil War, which is really odd, since the town she grew up in was kind of a hotbed of activity during the Civil War. I do think that lack of parent involvement is a big issue, too many seem to view our public schools as not much more than day care. I was fortunate to have parents that were determined I was going to know all I could, and knew more than enough to fill in the blanks left by my teachers. I must admit, outside of the wars the US has been involved in, I don't know much about world history. I've forgotten a good deal of what I was taught. I guess we retain what we are interested in and put the rest in the far corners of the mind where it sits and gets moldy

Sorry to continue the

fftopic: discussion. I'll shut up now.

Cobden · Mar 18, 2010

SPeedbird, there is an absolutely brilliant book called "Cairo in the War" by Artemius Cooper, which is all about the Short Range Shepheards Group and thier ilk. Whilst it doesn't go into huge amounts of details about the work side of things, it gives plenty of information about the characters and the various "flaps".

Now, if you want to get into the obscure side of things, my latest impression may appeal (especially considering your username)...Wartime BOAC!

Warden · Mar 18, 2010

I enjoy researching all the theatres of 20th century warfare, but usually the home front / social side of what ever nation.

Mind you just recently I have enjoyed researching the post war / late 1940s Europe. Really interesting period and on the whole as the decades changed from the 40s to the 50s, one of hope and the feeling things are going to get better.

Harry
Harry

Warden · Mar 18, 2010

Now, if you want to get into the obscure side of things, my latest impression may appeal (especially considering your username)...Wartime BOAC!

do share some pics, love this idea

Harry

Speedbird · Mar 19, 2010

Cobden said:
SPeedbird, there is an absolutely brilliant book called "Cairo in the War" by Artemius Cooper, which is all about the Short Range Shepheards Group and thier ilk. Whilst it doesn't go into huge amounts of details about the work side of things, it gives plenty of information about the characters and the various "flaps".

Now, if you want to get into the obscure side of things, my latest impression may appeal (especially considering your username)...Wartime BOAC!

OOOh yeeeeeeeeesssss! I would be very interested in both .... and thank you for understanding my username .... usually I am impressed with anyone making a BA connection ... but BOAC is a notch up and why you are a bit of a legend around here! :eusa_clap

So where I can I view this new impression of yours?

Teekay44 · Mar 20, 2010

I try to research all areas of the conflict. MTO is interesting but then so is CBI. (yes many Americans do not know this area)

American home front/defense is an interest too. Myself and some other loungers are involved here http://www.fortmiles.org/ Nothing like crewing the big guns!

V.C. Brunswick · Mar 21, 2010

Speedbird said:
Exactly! I think it is as I have grown older I grew to appreciate that it takes more than just the sharp end warriors but also stumbling across guys posting in forums that were armourers and crew chiefs and the like (I was looking up some info on an AVG pilot and found two of his ground crew making posts in the AVG forum!) - it got me wondering about the mechanics and engineers and fitters etc - my RAF grandad told me they had nothing in the Desert, no tools, hardly any parts, no proper equipment or facilities - they had to manage with what they had or could make or scavenge from something else. I think I have only really appreciated this more of late.

fftopic:

I was leafing through one of my reference books on World War II naval and air force badges and insignia and was looking at some illustrations of Royal Navy Non Substantive badges. There were a number of them for the Air Fitter and Air Mechanic trades. My question is what was the difference between a fitter and a mechanic?

RLM · Mar 21, 2010

V.C. Brunswick said:
fftopic:
My question is what was the difference between a fitter and a mechanic?

VC, just a guess, but maybe a fitter worked on the airframe and body of the plane vs. a mechanic keeping the mechanicals running?

Speedbird · Mar 21, 2010

V.C. Brunswick said:
fftopic:

I was leafing through one of my reference books on World War II naval and air force badges and insignia and was looking at some illustrations of Royal Navy Non Substantive badges. There were a number of them for the Air Fitter and Air Mechanic trades. My question is what was the difference between a fitter and a mechanic?

That's a tough one ... I am sure that there is a clear and definite distinction within the discipline of Engineering somewhere that goes way back. I am probably a bit slap-dash when I use the terms Fitter, Mechanic, Fitter-Mechanic - in the modern world I see job adverts using all three interchangably. I tend to think of a Fitter as someone who 'fits' things, and a mechanic as someone who 'fixes' things. A Fitter-Mechanic does both. In my head, anyway. Looking at current Fleet Air Arm job roles, these roles have now been subsumed by one job - Air Engineering Technician who may specialise in specific areas.

My understanding of the WWII roles would be based on a sub-division between airframe and engines. I think the Mechanics focused on the 'oily' mechanicals and other 'wet' bits - engines, fuel systems hydraulics etc while the Fitters looked after the airframe and things that attached to it. This could be a massive over-simplification. [huh]

Edit: RLM beat me with a much shorter to the point suggestion!

Speedbird · Mar 21, 2010

Here's an interesting and quite moving first hand account by a former wartime RN Air Mechanic - but the work he describes seems to me to be that of an Armourer?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/09/a3394109.shtml

V.C. Brunswick · Mar 21, 2010

RLM said:
VC, just a guess, but maybe a fitter worked on the airframe and body of the plane vs. a mechanic keeping the mechanicals running?

Looking at the book again, the Fitter and Mechanic trades were both subdivided into Airframe, Engine, Electrical, and Ordnance specialties which were denoted by the letters "A", "E", "L" , and "O" respectively. The Fitter badge was a two-blade propeller while the Mechanic had a four-blade prop. So there were, for example, both Airframe Fitters and Airframe Mechanics.

Speedbird · Mar 21, 2010

V.C. Brunswick said:
Looking at the book again, the Fitter and Mechanic trades were both subdivided into Airframe, Engine, and Electrical specialties which were denoted by the letters "A", "E", and "L" respectively. The Fitter badge was a two-blade propeller while the Mechanic had a four-blade prop.

Yep - this question got me hunting too.

There was an Ordnance category in each trade too - denoted by "O"; which explains why our chap in my post above from BBC news describes himself as a Air Mechanic (O) and tells us about his work with the munitions carried by the a/c. (Where he tells us the "O" means short course, either his memory is dulled by 60 years - or more likely, there has been an edit which has removed something from the original because there were long and short trade course qualifications as well).

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2aaRN-PayTables00Ranks-Badges.htm

UPDATE: this source shows air fitters had four-blade prop, and air mechanics had two-bladed props. ???

Now, where is the job description for each trade?

WWII Theaters of Operation... Which Do You Prefer?

A-List Customer

Practically Family

A-List Customer

A-List Customer

One Too Many

One Too Many

Familiar Face

I'll Lock Up

Familiar Face

Practically Family

One Too Many

One Too Many

A-List Customer

One of the Regulars

Familiar Face

A-List Customer

A-List Customer

A-List Customer

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