A diplomatic request

Discussion in 'The Observation Bar' started by MDFrench, Nov 3, 2003.

  1. Fedora

    Fedora Vendor

    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Mississippi
    Brilliant Jsoft. You have been indoctrinated very well, and from the looks of it, the hypnosis was a success! Just kidding, although to listen to you reminds me of fairy tales where the main character lives happily ever after. First off, I never said I did not like our current President. I voted for him, along with the other Republicans. I was not out to attack him in any way. My rant was just a stream of consciousness thing, free form, with some exagerration that is part and parcel of my personality. Some are not so generous in their accessment..:p :D If American society guaranteed success for the "little man", through hard work, sound decisions, honesty, and all the rest, this would indeed be a utopia for the working man. And that is certainly something noble for a society to strive for. My point was really about how the lawmakers and their cohorts, are intent on letting corporations who used to employ my neighbors, leave the country and take advantage of cheap labor in foreign lands. I don't buy into this at all. Let me share a true story that took place right here last year. And this story is not something that just happened in my home town, but it is happening in thousands of home towns all over this land. We had a huge factory here in town that employed hundreds of folks. It has been here since I was just a lad, and was one of only a few factories in this southern town. I personally knew one of the engineers that worked at this factory. They are no longer here. My friend spent the most of this year in Mexico, working with the company, opening up a modern factory there, and even hiring some of the new employess. He told me they were paying these folks 6 dollars a day, with no insurance, no 401 k, just 30 dollars a week. The American that was doing this same job was making 12 bucks an hours, with insurance and a 401k plan. Of course, the electric motors that this factory made for the automotive industry are sold back here to GM. Yeah, you might be able to save 50 bucks on that car the mexican motor went in, but you could not afford it if you were the one who lost the job to cheap labor. You see, I see this in much the same way as my maternal grandfathers occupation years ago before I was born. He was a sharecropper. You know anything about sharecropping? Sharecropping was nothing more than white slavery, with a sugar coating. The only one who made a decent living was the landowner, while his sharecroppers lived in poverty, and literally sweated blood. This was just a continuance of the age old thing of taking advantage of your neighbors in order to gain wealth. To make it to the top often involves trampling on many people. Now, to me, one purpose of goverment is to try and maintain a fair playing field. And, it is obvious to me that the rules of the game are all written by one team, the corporation, with paid help from the legislative branch. You know the old saw, "what is good for general motors is good for the country". We seem to live by that axiom today. My point of view is that any action that takes good paying jobs away from Americans is not good for the country. A real simple point of view, but it can be made really complex by quick wits with economic theories, who muddy the waters enough to cloud common sense vision. And they are very good at it. People buy into it, until they are the ones who lose their jobs. I can remember how poor it was here in the rural south in the 50's. I can also recall how the standard of living seemingly changed over night with the addition of factories in the south, making goods from raw materials and adding real value to the GNP. What happens when those factories leave the country? And whose fault is it? Who allowed it to happen? Not me. Are the democrats responsible, or the republicans? Both? Look in your house and see how many things are made here. Everything that you buy that is foreign made took jobs away from your neighbors. We don't think of it in those terms. So, I am mad at the democrats and the republicans. I am not so naive as to think either party has all the answers, or that there is something noble about either party. Truth is, they are driven men, driven by greed, the worse greed of all, the greed for power and influence. Not all mind you, but most. They are quite at home with the corporate execs, they share much in common. Camelot it is not. No knights of the round table, with chivalry emaneating from their souls. But, that is the way that it is, and like family secrets, it is better left unsaid. If the lights are turned on, the vermin run. Dark rooms suit this sort much better.
    I am a down home type of guy. If it were left up to me, I would take care of this country first, as I would much rather spend the tax dollars on American citizens than to send it over seas. I am not taking about giving folks that are too lazy to work a free handout. I certainly would not continue subsidizing the subculture of single parent homes by welfare payments to unwed moms. They are rewarded for having many kids out of wedlock. The more you have, the more money you get, that is, as long as you remain unmarried. That farce I will lay at the democrats feet.
    On the drug issue. Being an old Anthropology student, I am aware of accepted drug use in many different cultures. There have been many cultures where the use of mind altering substances has been part of the society, and I got bad news for ya. Those societies did not self destruct from accepting it, and using it. We have our own accepted drug. Alcohol. It is one of the most dangerous drugs available. It is also legal. Criminalizing it in the 20's was a big mistake. I find it amusing that when we refer to mind altering substances, we say, drugs and alcohol. In reality, we should say, just drugs. See, separating alcohol from drugs serves a purpose. Drugs are bad, alcohol is ok. I am not advocating drug use. But, to send folks to prison, for something they ingest is insanity. If you don't own your self, what do you own? Is my body goverment property? To have power over your fellow man, to the point of sending him away for doing something to himself, is nothing more than tyranny. Dress it up, and call it what you want, but in the end, it is tyranny. No one should have the right to do so. Yet we accept it full throttle, no questions asked. And yes, by making drugs a jailable offense, you drive up the prices astronomically, and with the high profits, there is always someone to step up to the plate to take the place of the dealer sent to prison. The profit is seemingly worth the risk. By criminalizing drugs you strengthen organized crime. You help the cartels. There is one indisputable fact. You can never stop folks who want a chemical pleasure from doing so. You can wage all the wars you want. You can squander billions of dollars. You may as well outlaw sex. Seriously. The war on drugs will never be won, because you can not, try as you might, change human nature. It is lunacy. It is as obvious as the nose on your face. I do not understand how in the world this can not be seen by the legislatures. The fact is, they do see it, but will not admit that they can't win a war. Ignor-ance. They choose to ignore. There will always be a certain percentage of the population that will use chemicals for the pleasure it gives. Sending some of these to prison only makes matters worse. So, I say, make everything legal, but make sure everyone knows the dangers involved, and that you very well could lose your life in this unhealthy pursuit of pleasure. It won't happen in my lifetime. It won't happen because there is too much money to be made by too many people that have the power to make and enforce laws. If you tax it, those dollars won't end up in their pockets. Well, I am tired and it is bedtime. I enjoy talking about all of this and welcome comments and opinions. regards, Fedora
     
  2. Kittlemeier

    Kittlemeier New in Town

    Messages:
    29
    Location:
    Valdosta, GA
    I'm the new Fedora cheerleading section. Very well said. Jsoft, I understand where you're coming from also. I believed all that at one time. K
     
  3. MK

    MK Founder Staff Member Bartender

    To bring this back on topic.......


    ......the point being made was we should distinguish between the person and their political affiliation or slant. Mr. French wasn't advocating any political party. If I may paraphrase.....put people first and leave room for other opinions.


    I agree with him. I know many people who I respect that I don't agree with their political or religious believes.

    I think it would be better not to hi-jack his thread and use it as a tool to promote either brand.
     
  4. Michaelson

    Michaelson One Too Many

    Messages:
    1,839
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Well then, as was requested once before, you really need to set down guidelines for this section. As was once pointed out, this is the Observation Lounge, where ideas and opinions are tossed about with no concern of cencure, and as long as it's kept civil. In any conversation I've ever been involved in, one topic can lead into another, and folks have opinions that they want to air that follow along lines of conversation. In most forums it WOULD be considered 'highjacking', but is it considered so in this particular section of the Fedora Lounge? French offered a very good point, and it lead to the discussion that followed, that I, for one, have found interesting.
    It is still not clear, where the lines are and when they've been crossed. I know I'd appreciate knowing where to draw the line. How about some guidelines, Fearless Leader! High regards. Michaelson;)
     
  5. MK

    MK Founder Staff Member Bartender

    I didn't mean to imply that politics was a taboo subject.

    I see The Fedora Lounge as a kind of old style gentlemen's club....except that ladies are not barred from participating. The members discussed matters of the day and still respected each other. Politics were discussed in those clubs and our members are welcomed to discuss it here as well......as long as they don't make it personal. So there is your policy.

    As for French's thread.....I will have to agree that the discussion is fine even though it is straying from his original intent. In hind sight, I think I was being too careful to keep the peace. I am glad you asked Michaelson.

    Carry on.
     
  6. Michaelson

    Michaelson One Too Many

    Messages:
    1,839
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Thank you sir! Regards. Michaelson
     
  7. Marlowe

    Marlowe One of the Regulars

    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    The Berglund Apartments
    "Politics and religion are bootless subjects for conversation among friends." I can't remember who said it, but I tend to agree.

    That's why it's so great being a cynical, bah-humbug curmudgeon like me. I cannot be accused of discrimination--my opinions offend all: Democrats, Republicans, Communists, Libertarians.
     
  8. Michaelson

    Michaelson One Too Many

    Messages:
    1,839
    Location:
    Tennessee
    You and me, bubba, you and me. I'll buy the next round. (grins) Regards. Michaelson
     
  9. Fedora

    Fedora Vendor

    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Mississippi
    Marlowe wrote: "Politics and religion are bootless subjects for conversation among friends." I can't remember who said it, but I tend to agree.

    That's why it's so great being a cynical, bah-humbug curmudgeon like me. I cannot be accused of discrimination--my opinions offend all: Democrats, Republicans, Communists, Libertarians."


    I truly agree with the last part of your post. I am in that group as well. Cynicism is my forte. On the first part, I disagree. But only because I am in a little group here that meets a couple times a week at a country store to have coffee and sit around and talk politics and religion, if religion is in the national news. I won't name names, but one of the guys is a state senator, one is a minister, one is a prof of philosophy, one is a farmer, one owns a tire store, one is a diehard redneck who voted for George Wallace, and then there is me, the guy wearing the fedora. We are all friends, and have been for 30 years or so. Never has there been any hard feelings, although disagreement is common. I love it. But, knowing one another gives all of us a mutual respect. My life would be all the poorer without these guys and discussions. Oh, and we have 2 liberals in the mix. Regardless of politics, I love these guys. They are true friends, regardless of political beliefs. regards, Fedora
     
  10. Marlowe

    Marlowe One of the Regulars

    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    The Berglund Apartments
    You and me, bubba, you and me. I'll buy the next round. (grins) Regards. Michaelson


    __________________
    "...remember to read chapters 4 and 5...."

    Hey! Now there's an offer! Make mine Auchentoshan--neat. (Smacks lips greedily.)

    I, too, have friends with whom I can discuss these subjects. We're not fanatical enough about them to terminate our friendships over disagreements on these subjects, though. I have other friends with whom I would never raise the subjects, though, because they ARE. But they're not my oldest, closest friends...

    "God save us from true believers." That's another one whose originator I cannot remember. It was from the Crusades, though. It could have been Saladin or King Richard or some other leader. I don't even recall on which side they were; it is just as true, regardless. True believers are fanatics, and cannot be reasoned with.

    No political party is made up of only the truly pure. Each party and its platform is made up of the admirable and the venal. I guess you just try to figure out which one is the most admirable or the least venal to you and go with it. Or, like me, you could try to keep up with things on a case-by-case basis.
     
  11. Jsoftz

    Jsoftz New in Town

    Messages:
    37
    Location:
    Hometown, USA
    Fedora, my my you've got quite the nice situation! I wish I could just sit and talk with friends as diverse as that over coffee a few times a week, but it's not possible. One, I don't know any people like that, and two, with getting in to college and school and work and all I hardly have time to check this message board. I'm truly envious of that, it sounds great. Plus you've got many more fedoras than me and i'm also envious of that too..

    That said- I do have a little rebuttal for your last stream of consciouness essay there, but as my research paper for school is due Monday I will have to put it off till then.
     
  12. Fedora

    Fedora Vendor

    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Mississippi
    Good show! I am always interested in hearing differing opinions. I doubt if either is us will change their minds, but you opinion is as valuable as mine and I enjoy hearing what average Joe's like myself think. regards, Fedora
     
  13. Renderking Fisk

    Renderking Fisk Practically Family

    Too much Frank Cappera?

    What if we were able to not only change each other?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s minds, or get everyone to rethink something even for a moment but actually change the course of human destiny? What if conversations like this are able to change the world, one cyber-neighborhood at a time?

    The biggest problem right now is the labels. When we introduce ourselves into a particular forum, somehow we let it out that we?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re Democrat, Republican ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú Liberal or Conservative?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ resulting in at least 40 percent of your audience tuning you out or looking for flaws in your argument with out actually trying to find the validity of the thought?

    What if we could actually erase the labels and the divisions with out blurring the line between Good and Evil ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú Right and Wrong? Am I incorrect in saying that everyone here believes we all in the same boat, longing aspects of the past while taking advantages of what the present has to offer?
     

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